Chris & Anne Barnwell: Creating Texas Trail Community

DFW Running Talk: Chris & Anne Barnwell - Blaze Trails
===

Chris Detzel: [00:00:00] Welcome to DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel, so let's get started.

All right. Welcome to another DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Zel, and today I have Chris and Ann Barnwell. Chris Ann, how are you? Hey, doing well. You guys run Blaze trails running, so I know I have to say that beforehand. So I really do appreciate you guys getting on and I've run your races for years.

We'll talk a little bit about your races later. 'cause you have so many and they're a ton of fun. But before I get started, why don't we do a quick introduction. Maybe Chris, we'll start out with you, tell me a little bit about you, who you are, and then I'll kinda ask some questions about your running background and then Anne will go and talk to you a little bit.

How's that?

Anne Barnwell: Sounds good.

Chris Barnwell: Sure. I am Chris Barnwell and I am the race director for blaze Trails Running. I've, my, just to tell you a little bit of background about myself, I spent, a long time in a technology related career before getting into race, directing over 25 [00:01:00] years, doing that kind of stuff.

And, eventually, it got burned out and moved into this. Now the, the way we got into, or at least I got into this in general, was from, from running, I was somebody who got into running a little bit later in life, didn't really do anything competitive until, I got to be a, quite a bit older.

But, prior to that, I think around right around the time I turned 30, I started doing a little bit of light running, but it was like run, walking. I. My background is that, I came from being quite overweight at one point I weighed about 245 pounds. And I went to a doctor who had said that, I needed to lose weight.

And at first I just said, ah, he didn't know what the hell he's talking about. And I was, you didn't know that you had to lose weight, hey, there was a period of time whenever you're in denial, even though the, I'll send you a picture, Chris, you should been, I shoulda most

Chris Detzel: That could be the main pick.

Chris Barnwell: But I mean at one point, I ended up getting laid off from work and I started and walking eventually turned to run. After several years I got into, doing some [00:02:00] races and things like that. And things snowball. You got pretty fast

Chris Detzel: in the, I was looking at some of your data there, you.

Pretty fast in the marathon and half marathon. Pretty good. Like I was pretty impressed. I didn't even know you ran race road races. And then I saw that your first a hundred miler was Western states. How did that happen?

Chris Barnwell: How did that happen? So to continue the story there, the way that happened was I had I'd run, let's see in 20.

10. I was training for my second marathon and I'd just, I'd been going through a divorce earlier that year and I was running with a guy named Ed Stoddard who is his wife is south African and Ed's Canadian. And they, they had lived in South Africa at one point, and so Ed's you know, was, after we were training for our second marathon, he came back next year and said, Hey, I'm moving back to South Africa.

And he's you know what? You should come run comrades. I'll, and that's what he said, comrades. And I took it, seriously and said, yeah, why not, definitely should go run comrades. I [00:03:00] wanted to go and, run a race in Africa anyway.

And there was one that I was, targeting, but I said, you know what, let's do this one instead. And, so the next year I signed up for and ran Rocky Raccoon 50 because, before spending all the money to fly to South Africa and everything, I wanted to, just see what it was like to run a 50 miler.

And so ran and just, so for those

Chris Detzel: that don't know, Conrads is like 60 something miles. And so there's also, from my understanding, a downhill and then an uphill, depending on the year you run it.

Chris Barnwell: Yeah it's an 89 K race, so it's about 56 miles. Oh, 56. Okay. Yeah. And so the year that I ran was was a down year.

And that's that, just to go into it, without going into a lot of detail Yeah, it's a bit of a misnomer because, they say it's a down year and I guess it is net downhill, but that doesn't mean that there aren't, some climbs and there are, it's nothing like any of the trail races that you'd run, but, they're, pretty substantial for, compared to your average, kind of road race.

And like I said, I'd run Rocky Raccoon 50 that year. And back then you could qualify to run Western [00:04:00] states on a 50 mile race. And so I had I had a time that they qualified me to enter the lottery because I think back then it was, you had to run a 50 miler and under 12 hours.

And I think I ran 9 38 at Rocky. And and so that was that was what I used for my qualifier.

Chris Detzel: That's pretty awesome.

A 50 mile, your first 50 miler, you're getting nine hours at something. It sounds pretty good to me. All right, so let Ann let's talk a little bit about you.

How'd you get into running and where'd you start and all that kind of stuff.

Anne Barnwell: Alright, so everything you've heard from Chris, I'm completely different except for one thing. And that was, so I started running probably around the same age as him. I was in my early thirties and it's, let's face it, running is a great.

Sport. When you have young kids, you can put them in a jog stroller, you can run anywhere. It's just easy. So I did start running at that point, but it was my, if I can't go to the gym, I'll run. And so I started very slowly and then, very similar to Chris in my early forties, I went through a [00:05:00] divorce and that's when my running and it was slowly building.

But that is when I really went into high gear. There were times when I would run twice a day just purely out of, if I don't go running, I am not doing mentally well and I would just go running. And that's how I got into it. And eventually, I would never consider myself fast, but I did.

Okay. On my half marathons I have only once gone past a half marathon. I've done a 30 k big horn, 30 K in the mountains. It's not an easy 30 k no time in the mountains. You can be

Chris Detzel: easy.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah. It's, I trained for a marathon, but it was the marathon. It was the kowtow year that they had to cancel the marathon.

You did that and I decided. It was God's way of telling me not to run a marathon, and I have never run a marathon. And I'm here to tell you, you can live a happy, fulfilled life and not run a marathon. You don't have to run a hundred miles.

Chris Barnwell: Agreed.

Anne Barnwell: So I always think that's really [00:06:00] good that people understand that all distances are wonderful distances if it's what you want to do.

Chris Detzel: Completely agree. Yeah,

Anne Barnwell: besides the races and I'm obviously very involved in the races. I still work a day job, I work in communications for a financial services company so if you ever email us during the day and you think, why isn't Anne emailing me back? It's 'cause I'm actually working my day job still.

You're

Chris Detzel: working your real job, and then your other job.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what's

Chris Detzel: your, if you were to say, one of your favorite races that you just really enjoyed and besides the ones you guys put on, if you were to say, and we'll talk about your races here in a minute, but is there one specific that stands out?

Anne Barnwell: I'll go with my half marathon pr and it is a road race, but that's grandma's. Okay. I love grandma's. Duluth, Minnesota. It was actually this last weekend. I heard that this year it was hot. Sorry, our year. It was, I mean it's in June. It, I was so cold. [00:07:00] I was shaking after the race. It is my half marathon pr it will forever be my half marathon pr.

We couldn't etch that time in stone. It's not gonna get faster than that. What was

Chris Detzel: that time?

Anne Barnwell: It was 1 54. In 22 seconds I think. Again, nothing like, nothing wild and crazy fast, but I was pretty darn happy with it, and that's really all that meant. Yeah, I think

Chris Detzel: time is very kind of personal, right?

Think about, look, we all wanna try to PR and do better and different races and do different, but at the same time, when you start comparing yourselves, it's just not right, because we're all in some different category or different, level, right? Yeah, I wanna get faster.

I wanna run this specific time in the half marathon, but just because I might be faster than somebody or slower than somebody doesn't mean, it doesn't matter.

Chris Barnwell: That's right. To be honest with you personally, I have more fun trying to compete with myself, and just trying, it's it's great to run, some of these races more than once, just to see where you're at relative to where you've been in the [00:08:00] past.

It's cool

Chris Detzel: so one of the races that, for me, my favorite race that you guys put on is Rockledge Rumble, and I've probably run that five or six times. I don't know exactly, but the first time I ran it ran really fast. I was really young, early forties. 41. I don't know. I'm 50 now and the last time I ran it was probably a year or two ago and I thought I just killed it.

I was like, man, I did okay. And it was the 15 k and I was four minutes slower. I was like, no way. Yeah. Age

Chris Barnwell: done. I'm gonna say don't compare yourself to that early forties. Chris there I have that all the time. It's too easy to do.

Chris Detzel: It's too easy. And I felt like I was in just as good shape or better and maybe I was, who knows?

But something I thought was interesting I was reading a little bit about the two of you and you met at a running group, McGraw, right? And I see you guys there every year or every year we go we do the, they have this thing called the double, and so we double, triple, yeah. We don't go every [00:09:00] year.

But we went, I think last year and saw you guys and a couple years before that, I think I saw you again. So there, there must be a special time. I mean it's

Anne Barnwell: it's so double travel was actually my first exposure to raw in 2008. Just was looking and this was actually, I decided while I was going through my divorce I'm gonna run a race every month.

And at the time that was a 5K or a 10 K. And I ended up doing that race. And at that time people were talking to me about, why don't you join that. Group. I still waited a little bit. It is intimidating to go to a running club. I think we, hundred percent. We've been in a club for a while. We know what it's like and we're comfortable with it, but I think we have to remember.

It's a really intimidating experience because you are basically presenting yourself to a group of people and saying that you are a runner. And I didn't partic, at the time, the longest since I assistants I think I had run was a 10 k. And I [00:10:00] show up and there are people talking about these 50 miles and a hundred mile races and it was hard, it's overwhelming.

It is. It is, but it is a amazing running club as many are. Oh, absolutely.

Chris Barnwell: It's the same way for me, it's like even whenever I went, just getting up, the courage to go, I'd even run, I'd run a marathon the prior year and, I had no idea, of what the level was of anybody that's there.

Just because I'd run one marathon, I was kinda like going there's gotta be all these people that have run a lot of 'em. And I went. And yeah, that's exactly what it was. The running community has always been really welcoming and very open and it's and man, I gotta tell you, where else can you go, where you find all these other people that wanna just sit there and talk about running?

Chris Detzel: Yeah, that's what I, with this podcast, that's all I talk about. Is that where y'all met? Was that club or, 'cause that's what I read, I thought.

Anne Barnwell: It was his second run. Yeah, my second run. I had already been part of [00:11:00] the group almost two years. Oh, okay. Wow. And it was his second run. It was me, him, a guy that was nicknamed Fireman Ken.

He gave the toast at our wedding

Chris Detzel: fireman Ken,

Anne Barnwell: and a woman Tiffany, who we think we scared off because we were, ended up talking about our marriages and shared divorces and she never came back. And I always say, I'm so sorry, Tiffany. You're out there. I promise you marriage can be a really good thing. And we feel really bad.

Still feel bad about that one. The four of us running together. And fireman Ken joked, he told us later, when we eventually started dating, he always said, he goes, I knew by mile too. He is like you. Oh, we didn't dating for quite a while until, for several months after that. But he always says, I knew by mile too, so that's crazy.

Chris Detzel: So who asked who out? I assume Chris, you asked Dan out or how'd that work? Oh we,

Chris Barnwell: no. So yes, but we had a little bit of a dance point for for months, before this. It [00:12:00] was like back whenever I was on social media, it was like, she friends me and it's like I'll post something she likes every single post I had, there was a like from Anne Van Le out or Anne Woods, or whatever at the time.

And and next thing my mom is asking because. She's wearing a hope for the Warrior shirt. And the funny thing is, the shirt, I don't mean to get political but my parents are, you, my parents are very conservative and all this stuff. And it was in the same colors as a lot of those Obama posters that were out there and they were like going, they asked me, they're like, they're saying, Hey, is she like an Obama supporter?

And all this stuff, because concern that they have at the time it was

Anne Barnwell: like, nevermind that I'm a single mom, I could be. Absolutely bad shit. Crazy. If you're Obama supporter,

Chris Detzel: she's out. No, whatever. I don't care. You can have 10 kids. It doesn't matter. All right, so tell me about the date, or not the date, but who asked who out, what, what

Anne Barnwell: happened then?

So he we're both really into indie music and he asked if I wanted to go [00:13:00] to a cake concert.

Chris Barnwell: Actually what I'll, I'm gonna, I'm gonna correct one thing, I'm gonna add something to it. She mentioned it, one of the, at. One weekend at Raw, that cake was coming in town. Yeah.

Anne Barnwell: Do if and if you don't know who cake is, look it up.

Go on Spotify. As soon as you hear the voice you'll go, oh gosh, I've heard this band before. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So he asked me, but I wanted to make it clear it wasn't a date because I was a single mom and never, so I bought my own ticket and then

Chris Barnwell: he, it was really funny because I actually bought the tickets and then I go pick her up in the car.

Oh, okay. And she goes and hands me the money.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, and then I handed him money for parking. Nothing says this is not a date like a woman handing you half the money for parking. I had to make it very clear.

Chris Detzel: It seemed to work out, that's funny Is Leah and I have somewhat of a similar, we have a similar, story in a way, right? Like our, my, our first date was her first trail run. So I got [00:14:00] her to run a trail run in the hill country and it was 20 miles, I don't know, like a 30 k and it's really hot. I forgot which one it is. She ran it on one of the

Chris Barnwell: night. Carls,

Chris Detzel: that wasn't a nighttime. It was I can't remember.

I don't know. But I got her to run, so I drove down there and she ran the whole thing and I quit during half of it. And I was like, man I can't even do the rest of this. She finished anyways, so that was how she got into trail running and she did a lot of trail running after the fact.

We both did for a while. It's been a couple years since we've really dove back into it. Chris, you mentioned that you quit your job. I knew you were so I knew you when you had your full-time job as a tech guy. I think you're a BI something, doing some really cool stuff. Exactly. I think, or at least boring, cool stuff I guess.

Chris Barnwell: Trying to, yeah, I was probably around that time probably working for National Wildlife Federation at that time. Okay. Managing, working with their membership [00:15:00] marketing, being business intelligence and supporting the their marketing department with analytics.

So yeah, that, yeah, that's exactly right.

Chris Detzel: That goes really well with kind of what you're doing now, at least the analytics part. There's a lot of analytics in what you're doing, right? A lot of other stuff. A lot of other stuff. But, so let's talk about that. How'd you get, how did you two get into just before bla it was before Blaze Trails.

You guys just had some races that you were doing volunteer and things like that, but then it just eventually just all of a sudden, I remember like 10 or 15, 20 races and I'm like, damn guys are, it took out. We

Chris Barnwell: start. We started as a volunteer with Grasslands and Rockledge originally first Grasslands and then, I guess it was a year later year later. It was Rockledge as well. NTTR at the time was, having some trouble with forming a board and all that stuff. And I made an offer to purchase the races from 'em because, I told, the remaining board members I wanted, that I didn't have any interest in, in, being, like president of a club [00:16:00] and all that kind of stuff.

But I did say that, I can ensure. Guarantee you that these races will survive. And so that was the gist of it is, and here we are, 10 years later and everything is, is thriving for, the first couple years, I thought about, adding races and all that, but.

I was still working a day job and we're trying to, be, Ann was new at Fidelity and was, trying to get more established. So we quit some of that. The back, then our

Anne Barnwell: kids were home too. Yeah, exactly. That, that's the other thing. We have four kids combined, two and two.

They all lived with. Plus in 2015, we started out at Grasslands. Two of the four were still home. Two were in college, still coming home during the summers. The other two were still home, including my son who is autistic. And so really, that, you have to prioritize, and I don't know how conducive race directing is to, to parenting, especially when parent, when your kids, they have their own events going on and let's fix.

They have something going on that has to be a [00:17:00] priority. You're not gonna turn to your kid and say, I'm not taking you to this game or this practice. You're practice banding on

Chris Detzel: Saturday. Sorry.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah. And so you have to think about those things as well. So when we got into this, my son had just graduated high school, so it really was, that timing was pretty you're talking about when we added, yeah, when we added it was, it was the right time, not just for our family.

That's ultimately, no matter what, Chris can love race directing all he wants, but if it's not conducive to your family, you can't do it. That's right.

Chris Detzel: I was, I guess I was pretty surprised at first when you decided to take the plunge and I never really heard the story, so I appreciate you.

Kind of telling that because I was like, man, this guy quits his full-time job and just goes, dive, dives right in.

Anne Barnwell: And quit his full-time job October of 29. And what could only be the worst timing ever?

Chris Detzel: What? Weren't you getting laid off? You, didn't you tell me you got laid off or something?

No, that didn't happen. Oh, okay.

Chris Barnwell: He actually quit. I could have [00:18:00] stayed there. I actually, I had a really good relationship with the people I worked with there. And I built up, like a lot of vacation, over the, the four years that I was there.

And closer towards the end, I, because a lot of the stuff that I did, I was pretty integral to. A lot of things that they were doing and business intelligence and, analytics there, I had to do a lot of, we're a pretty small shop so I had to do a lot of transition and so I used a lot of that time where I was working, two, three days a week towards the end and, spending a lot of time, the extra time that I was taking off on vacation to do things like, get prepared for six.

Oh. Trying to figure out, 'cause six oh was one of the first ones that I did on my own. Yeah. Yeah. And so I spent a lot of time out at the ranch out there, just, going out and finding, the trails that are out there and rediscovering some of the trails that had, had overgrowth and all that kind of stuff.

Trying to figure out how I was gonna put together, a good course for, a run course out there. And, it wasn't just there. Lake Murray was another one I spent, I spent. Weeks out there. [00:19:00] And because, I, a lot of people don't really, know this about Lake Murray, but they probably have, close to 40 miles of trail out there.

And, some of it, some of it's better than others. And, I pretty much went over, pretty much all of it and had to, try and figure out a way to make a course that actually, made sense. And, never, like Murray's hard as

Chris Detzel: hell. I've done your Lake Murray one too, and I was like, god damn.

I really found it was hard. It was fun, but I found it was pretty tough,

Chris Barnwell: When I did it, it's a challenge. It's a deceivingly challenging race. You're not gonna get like a lot of vert in it, relatively speaking. It's not that much more than Rocky, it's, it, it's got some pretty, it's got some pretty technical stuff in there, compare, for, this part of the country. It's not, I don't know. It's all relative I guess, but, it's,

Hey, yeah it's, it's deceivingly challenge.

Chris Detzel: What's, so I have a question, and I'm just curious. So you get 6.0 going, what does that encompass? Like to get to just start a race from scratch, you say, okay, this is the place. What do you gotta do? What's all the things that you have to do that [00:20:00] people probably don't know? Unless you

Chris Barnwell: volunteers are helping doing stuff?

I mean it depends on the place. If it's an established trail system, a lot of times it's pretty straightforward. 'Cause you go to some places and the trails are what they are, but if you go to a place where you know, there's not. Quite as much traffic and things like that.

You have to spend a lot of time out reconning and looking at, the terrain and trying to figure out, where Yeah. I mean it, especially at six. Oh, it was a lot of hours just trying to figure out where the trails were. Because nobody had really, mapped 'em out other than, on a hand drawn poster board that, the ranch owner had out there, or she still has it out there.

She's, she's off. Yeah. But, it's for anybody who's technically inclined, it's a lot easier to have something, in digital form. I had to go and spend. All the time, looking at trails. Because, and when you get on a piece of land like that, or even at Grasslands, you have a lot of cattle trails and things like that are out there as well.

And it's trying to figure out what is the actual trail and not just some, game [00:21:00] trail or cattle trail, that's out. There can sometimes be, a challenge. Sometimes, I've been doing six. Oh now, this will be, I think the sixth year and it, sometimes it actually, plays to your advantage because we've had a couple times where I've had to do bypasses out there because of one reason or another. And and, sometimes the cattle trails can be useful, but but really it just. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time going out, reconning, going back, sitting down, looking at your tracks.

And in a lot of cases, in, in my case, I'll go back and I'll edit tracks and try to figure out every single segment, that I've been on and the way that they connect and try, 'cause one of the things that I've always, tried to do is I try to use as much trail as I can based upon what the venue allows.

And I will. In some cases rack my brain for days trying to figure out how to put a course together on this, even if I have a map, because sometimes it's not exactly all

Chris Detzel: that.[00:22:00]

Chris Barnwell: You knows things like

Chris Detzel: that permit, different

Chris Barnwell: places.

Chris Detzel: I was trying to

Chris Barnwell: think if it works. When you're talking about dealing with municipalities or agencies, yeah. There's always, a permitting process and it can vary widely depending upon which ones. Some of 'em are easier, some of 'em are more difficult.

Some landowners charge more, some less, some are a little more forgiving about things like weather than others, and, it runs the gamut.

Chris Detzel: So you guys have dealt with a lot of different things, whether it's weather, I've seen some of your races either canceled or redo 'em.

I feel like that's two or three a year at least, so that's gotta be a challenge.

Anne Barnwell: But before that, no, but the last year was rough.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. It's not every race, but it seems like there's just,

Anne Barnwell: And every race is different. And the moment whether, you know the harder thing in it is the moment weather comes into play, you can sense the anxiety among runners because Oh, yeah.

They don't know what that means and not what it means for the race and what it means for them. So there's always more questions that are coming in and, sometimes we just have to wait and not answer them right away. Yeah. Because the only, it's the same answer we don't know

Chris Detzel: yet.

Anne Barnwell: And me, the hardest thing is looking three days out and making, having to make a decision that is going to be the best decision for everyone. And now knowing that we're hanging this on a weather forecast that might be totally made off,

Chris Barnwell: which, typically, that's not what we do.

Right now what I'll say is, we've had a couple of situations, [00:24:00] in, the last couple years with Coyote, where we've had to do it well in advance each time, fortunately, or maybe not so fortunately, but we had to make the call early in, in both situations, that brings with it.

A whole different set of anxieties. Yeah. 'cause it's like it cancel in advance and then all of a sudden the weather's great. It's gee, now you've just created another headache for yourself.

Anne Barnwell: I will say when we had to reschedule last year, we watched the weather ca barely slough because I just wanted to see the whole place just get pummeled with rain and if if we canceled it, it better rain.

It was actually thank, I think I remember that. Goodness, it was, would have been very severe. And actually the worst would have been right after the four Mile Runners would have started, and we had a lot of parents running with their kids. It would've been a really bad, it could have potentially been a really bad situation.

So it was the right [00:25:00] decision. And look, I, I've

Chris Detzel: always respected, the decisions, it sucks, don't get me wrong, but it's not like you guys put on a race and think, I can't, we can cancel this. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not

Chris Barnwell: it's occasionally we get, the kind of, like social media comment or something like that, or the email or something, and it, and, it just makes me look, and wonder, it's and sit there and say, okay, seriously.

It's yeah, we canceled this. It's you really think we would do this and do something negative to impact our business. It's like it's. For-profit company. It's that doesn't make any sense. Exactly. It's also

Anne Barnwell: when you reach Chris, I don't

Chris Detzel: know that you, do you know what Facebook or Instagram is or anything?

Have you ever heard of those? He does because I tell him, yeah, okay. I'm just messing with it.

Chris Barnwell: There was a time whenever I used to be on, it's anyway, I'm not gonna get into that.

Chris Detzel: Yeah I figured there's a reason.

Anne Barnwell: Wow. Every once in a while he jumps on and people are stunned. I know he has an official profile.

You [00:26:00] can tag him.

Chris Detzel: No, I, I've seen his Facebook profile anyways. I don't know if you have an Instagram or not, but I. Sorry, Ann, what were you gonna say?

Anne Barnwell: What I was saying is when we reschedule, it's not double the work. It's triple the work. Yeah. I can imagine. It Is it's I'm not gonna mince words.

It sucks. It is what it is. Every one of us has a job and there's something about it that's not so fun, and that's one of those.

Chris Barnwell: Yeah, because the thing about it is, it's if we have to cancel or postpone or something, it's there were, there was, there were, even though we have other races we have to do, there were things that we had planned on doing during that timeframe that.

We no longer are gonna get to do. And so it just pushes some of those other things out. A good example of that this year is getting ready for grasslands this year, because, I started making a lot of the top finisher awards, engraving them myself.

And so those kept on getting pushed out, race after race, and after we postponed this and they got pushed out a little further. Yeah.

Chris Detzel: You couldn't get it done as quickly as [00:27:00] you're hoping.

Chris Barnwell: Yeah, no. Yeah. I didn't have the time. No, I just didn't have the time to do it. Yeah,

Chris Detzel: so it's alright.

You guys place trails running Has. 12 races from what I can tell on your website. Is that right? Is that right? Okay. That's a lot of races and look, I've been to a lot of them. I wouldn't say I've been to all of them. So one thing that help me understand this thinking, because when I think of a lot of these trail races, you guys have a hundred milers, a hundred Ks, 50 milers, 50 Ks guys have half marathons, 10 Ks, five Ks, and all this other stuff.

Used to though there was really more of this thought I don't call it old school, that's how it was whenever you ran a trail. It was a lot longer. It was a thinking and then, and I could be completely wrong, but the way I saw it was, remember when Rob started putting on his races?

He started putting on five Ks, 10 Ks and other things. And then from my last interview and talking to him, because Chris, that's the only way I can make money. He goes, there's, there was no way to only make money on KS 50 milers and a hundred milers. 'cause you got a lot less people showing up to some of those.

Really long, long [00:28:00] races. Anyways, I that. You guys have now five Ks and shorter races. Now assume a lot of those people that, a lot of people come to those. And I guess my question is that's a lot of races, and a lot of races just on one day or two or whatever it is that, you got a hundred miler over here, you've got a hundred k, then all the way down to sometimes 5K, what's your, are you exhausted? You gotta put on the race and then you've gotta actually do it. You can react any way you want. Like how I mentioned all of that. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking,

Chris Barnwell: But I've, it's like I talked to Rob about this stuff as well, back then and and actually I think they were doing this at the Captain Carl's races as well.

That's right. Because they were doing 10 Ks out at the Captain Carl's races, for years and summers. Yeah. And one of the things, one of the reasons why, we started looking at adding a lot of those was because, after going to several, the Captain Carl's races, I started to realize and talking to some of the people that we know that run and, because me, I always, run the longer distances typically.

And you [00:29:00] know what and one of the things that, you know, Anne and I, also started to observe was that, if you had that shorter distance race out there. That would actually give somebody who's out there to support, like their partner, their spouse, whoever their kid, or maybe the kid is out there with, the parent or something like that.

It would give them a more accessible distance to actually tackle out on the trails as, yeah. And so it was something, yeah, Rob definitely did a lot of that. Now would I say that's the only way I can make money? No not for us at least. Because, oh, the thing is, I know that when Rob was doing it, he would get tons of people running the shorter distances a lot.

It would be a lot. For us, and maybe it's more to do with, the kind of runner that, that I am and the people that we know and have relationships with. We don't get those kind of numbers in the shorter distances. We get some and we get, they're fair amount, but it's definitely, the middle distances tend to be the ones that are the larger ones at most of our races though.

Chris Detzel: So the draw [00:30:00] is the marathon, half marathon. Of course the 50 K and a hundred miler draw, but not,

Anne Barnwell: the draw is, I would say K to that. K, okay. That's really, and then, don't get me wrong, grasslands, we had close to a hundred people register for grasslands a hundred miles.

Dang. Those, that, that distance is really coming along as well. But the, the 50 miles big at that one too. That grasslands is just a big race though.

Chris Detzel: So when y'all think of. COVID, right? Like it, it feels that kinda shut down everything. And I'm sure that was a very difficult time for you guys, especially since you decided, Hey, I'm gonna go full time in this thing, and then everything shuts down.

Probably gave you some really good time to think, about what, what has that been like since after COVID? In some races I'm seeing running. I saw running before COVID Skyrocket, went down a little bit, but then I see it run skyrocketing again. It's crazy. Again, you literally have 50 or 60 running groups out there that just, you can't even count 'em these days.

I don't even know, like all the running [00:31:00] groups out there, which is good. There's this one running group called Run It Up, and they literally have like hundreds. There's dancing, they're partying, all kinds of shit, like I don't ever have that much fun when I go to my running group,

Anne Barnwell: Theo.

We have not made it out there yet. I have so much respect for what Theo has done. Yeah. With that group. He has really done a great job there for sure. Such a good job and really reaching a group that I think by all accounts we say is underrepresented in running and really has done such a great job.

Represen, I've love

Chris Detzel: they're representing now

Anne Barnwell: they are doing an amazing job and I love seeing it.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, me too. So I get, the question is more like, how's the races going like now? Is it exactly is it booming? What's going on in the trail world? At

Chris Barnwell: least in y'all's world. Things are going well.

It's it's awesome. It's some races are doing extremely well, and some of 'em are holding their own, and that's, that's just, [00:32:00] that's the way it goes. It's we've been doing this long enough now, to know.

It's like your own running, it's each year you can't necessarily compare your performance in one year to the next because, things ebb and flow. It's we've been doing grasslands now for 10 years, and we've had years where, we've had, just some, early on we had some years where we had, some just really insane numbers.

And then only, to see a bit of a decline, and, for a couple years after. But, now you know, it it's, it's booming again, which is really cool. Awesomes this year was insane. It's awesome. That was, that was really cool because, it's like possums is one of those races that, really holds a special place in my heart.

Because that that, that was one of the races that was on my journey to Western states because, I ran the race whenever, I don't know, do you remember Dave Vandenberg?

Anne Barnwell: Oh

Chris Barnwell: yeah.

Anne Barnwell: He knows.

Chris Barnwell: Sure do. Yeah. Yeah. So he was amazing. Several. We do now.

Chris Detzel: He disappeared.

He did all these awesome races. Yeah. And then all of a sudden he's nowhere. Nobody knows [00:33:00]

Anne Barnwell: Chris, do you remember that's where you and I met at Whispering Pines? Yeah.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, I do remember that Chris

Anne Barnwell: running, miss Leo was running the long distance. Oh

Chris Detzel: no, I was running the shorter one.

Anne Barnwell: I was sitting, I don't know where.

Yeah,

Chris Detzel: we were both sitting waiting for our spouses or my girlfriend at the time.

Anne Barnwell: He, yeah so yeah, Chris, that's where Chris and I met Chris. Good memory, Chris. That's one I met.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

Anne Barnwell: Is at Whispering Hines. And that was 2016, or 2017.

Chris Barnwell: It was 2016 at least. Okay. Because, and the reason why I know this Oh yeah.

It was, is because because, I, because in 20, 20 17, I ran into Lee out at at Boston, after running Boston. That's right.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah.

Chris Barnwell: Because, it's I, I didn't really, that was whenever I first started to know y'all then.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

She's done 12, almost 13 now. So she's, that's insane. That's awesome. Yeah, she's done an amazing

Anne Barnwell: job on that. That's incredible.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. It's crazy to kinda look back at what you're seeing and, because that is where I first met you and I was, I remember sitting [00:34:00] there and I think you offered me a beer, and I was like, yeah, thank you.

Yeah.

Chris Barnwell: That was

Chris Detzel: like something I would do. Oh, you did. And I was like this, so that's when we first started getting into trail running. Like I said, I ran a few before, but we started to do more of it, and it was cool because you'd sit down and somebody would offer you a beer.

And I was like, oh, that was really cool. And I remember telling Leah, I go, this woman Ann, she just hands me a beer, and she goes, yeah, that's, Chris, that's her husband or whatever. I was like, no, I didn't know. But no, it's just the trail community has always been, in my opinion, dear to my heart.

I've always enjoyed it and it's, it probably always will. I need to get back out there and to do a little bit more. So what races do you guys have coming up? What's, what are you excited about and what's coming?

Anne Barnwell: So we do enjoy a little bit of a lull at this time.

Good. Which is. Nice with the heat. Chris gets to go to Colorado and he does trail work at hard for the Hard Rock 100. But our next race, let's do some work blazing. Exactly. [00:35:00] So our next race is the first weekend in August. It's a night race called Blazing Summer Suffer Fest. We believe in truth in advertising.

It's gonna be hard, like

Chris Detzel: seven or something. It's at

Anne Barnwell: night. At Cedar Hill State barf. It's a lot of fun. And then we di we really dive in September, October, November are really busy months for us with several distances. I'll give a shout out to, because I know a lot of your listeners are.

Our road runners. I'll give a shout out to Paris P if you've ever wondered, gee, how do I feel about running on this route with holding my water into, that different format we call Paris Pear, a road race with a trail vibe. It is on the trail, so it is, is really completely asphalt and it goes from 5K, which is in the evening.

And it the it go. We have several distances that are both morning and night. And then we also have the a hundred K that happens on that, and it's flat. It's [00:36:00] beautiful. It's tree covered and lined, but it's not technical. It's a trail in the aspect that it's a paved path and it's not on the road, but, give a shout out to that.

It's September 5th, which there used to be a very popular race in Dallas at that date, and that is no longer there. So it's, if you're looking for a half marathon or marathon it's there. And a great introduction to Trail running lands, which is in March is. Another great introduction to trail running because it was my first trail race in 2009.

It's not as technical really. Yeah, it's done a half marathon

Chris Detzel: there. And I could attest to it. Yeah, it's great. Leah's done it a few times. I've done it at least once. But yeah, it's a very nice trail that, it's not too technical or anything like that. You'll find a little bit of rough spots, but it's not.

Anne Barnwell: Yeah. And then I'll let you do some shout outs.

Chris Barnwell: Yeah. So there's always, a, as she mentioned, grasslands for sure would really to see more people, come and sign up for the hundred out there. So a couple of the races that you know.

Near and [00:37:00] dear to my heart are like I said possum Kingdom next year out at Possum Kingdom Lake. As I was saying, that one's kind of near and dear to my heart. It was on my Western States journey. I ran that race during the first two years when Dave Hanenburg was doing it. It's got a lot of those cool things about trail running in it that.

I just, totally love. And the other one is, is Dana Peak out in Killeen. And one of the reasons why I really like Dana Peak is because that has a lot more of the kind of things that I just really love about trail running. It's, it, Dana Peak and a lot of those courses, that you'll see out in the Hill country, we embody a lot of the things that.

You, it's not gonna be exact, but a lot of the things that you see out west at a lot of those trail races out there, a lot of climbing, lots of, nice views and things like that out there.

Anne Barnwell: That's a harder one.

Chris Detzel: It looks like it. I pulled it up on the net here, and so I was kinda looking at, you guys go all the way from a 10 K, 20 K, 50 k, and a hundred K yep.

Anne Barnwell: And the k is a single loop, which in Texas [00:38:00] that's a big deal. Oh yeah. There's. There's a, there, we're land challenged here in Texas. To have a tra have a race that has a single loop for a 50 K is pretty great.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. If you're looking at kind of the ascent, it's depending on which deal you do.

Like you can get a 20 K and that's 1500 feet of gain that's pretty big, just for, a trail out here and look, I don't think that's gonna be easy at all. Anything that I missed that you Chris, you completely missed this, during this conversation that I probably should have covered?

Anne Barnwell: I, we've been in this community a long time, so we've done. A lot of volunteering, a lot of running, a lot of running clubs, and it's just something we're passionate about. I'll admit, Chris probably would've dove into this full-time earlier, but I was the holdout because, I just started a job and.

It, it's something though that we love and gosh the people we've met, if you haven't, if you haven't tried trail running, I just, I highly encourage and by the way, we still run roads too. [00:39:00] Oh yeah. Of course. We, pretty much everybody does. We're. It's at Dallas Fort Worth, there's, it's

Chris Detzel: almost impossible to not run a on the road,

Anne Barnwell: And it, there's room for both of it, but it is a great way to mix up your running. It's a great way to, oh, add a little interest and an excitement and challenge, my gosh, the people in trail running. I just think it's so different than any other sport. I think the way part of it is the way the trails are set up.

I think in trail running it, it's the only sport I have seen where you can be like that average runner, even back of the pack runner and you will still be encountering and rubbing shoulders. With those elite runners or in those, the front of the pack, because the way the trail works and you gain from that.

You learn from them. It's just a human experience. They're

Chris Barnwell: always supportive. I remember. Years ago you talking about, like, when I was running Hell's Hills one year where Paul Terranova came up and he was like, Hey, great job, stops.

And he is out there [00:40:00] smiling and everything. Yeah. He's looping me and it was, and he's looping you, in the race. But

Anne Barnwell: He's you're doing great. And as he's looping me, he's, he is. Going on his second or third loop and passing me like I'm, standing still. But, he's still taking the time to give those encouraging words.

And that's what so many of the runners are like in this.

Chris Barnwell: Yeah. It's like even like even like out at, out at Leadville when I, years ago, with that being an out and back race, you actually see the front runners coming at you from the other direction.

And, that year got Jurich I think it was, it might've actually even been his last race or last hundred. And he was coming the other way, and he was just like, Hey, good job. All that kinda stuff. And it was just really cool. You, it's you.

See people, these elite people that are out there, and they're just so incredibly supportive of everybody. They're a part of the community. They're just like anybody else. That's the true beauty of this sport.

Anne Barnwell: And I do think it's a little different from a road marathon, whereas a road marathon that marathoner finishes.

And you don't typically see those first [00:41:00] finishers by the time you finish it. It's just the layout of the course, it's just not going to happen. So it is something unique to trail running. That's really nice.

Chris Detzel: I could attest to that. I remember when I, I got big into DR Lee and I for a while and.

I remember just going to different races. The gang would show up, we'd put up a tent and we could put our stuff there. There'd be like families or a wife of somebody or whatever. Somebody comes in, Hey, here's a towel, and put ice on your head or whatever. It was a different atmosphere and I really enjoyed it too, and I could say, this is I appreciate.

The stuff that you're doing, I know that what you're doing is a lot of hard work. Just imagine it, I've done some of it, just as in helping but what you're doing is a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of effort to put on a great experience for your runners, and just what it takes to actually do that.

You gotta get a lot of volunteers, and all these things. That's the job in itself. All the stuff you have to do is ridiculous.

Anne Barnwell: And I'm gonna say we have the most amazing volunteers. Yes, we [00:42:00] do. My gosh, when he told, when Chris told me I want to make grasslands a hundred mile, I joked Grasslands was a bear to put on when it was a 50 mile and then we decided to do 101.

I'm not gonna say I was always sweet, but let's just, are you crazy? And one of my biggest fears was how are we going to recruit enough volunteer to really, to, to not just to put a warm body in place, but to put every, so that every aid station has people in it who really know what they're doing.

And that's one thing, like people will say to us, you have the best volunteers. And I'm like, oh yeah, we do. We are so fortunate. Part of it is, I'll sometimes have people come to me and say, Hey, I wanna have my group here. And I'm like, I love that. But unless you have at least a few people in the group who have run trail races, this is really hard.

Like you have to have someone who really understands those runners and what they need. And it's, it helps best for the runner for sure. It's safety [00:43:00] issue. It's all of those things. And the fact of the matter is we had. So many volunteers. This past year at Grasslands, I ended up adding slots because I cer I was not gonna turn anyone away.

That's awesome. And it, it was incredible. But ultimately what it was is that. People just wanted to be part of helping their friends, helping a fellow, ultra runner meet a goal. We were blown away. And when we really do it, most of our races at some point in the day, especially those long ones, we just kinda look around and go, holy smokes, how it's amazing.

Yeah. Like how lucky are we? And we really do feel that way.

Chris Detzel: And how lucky are we to have you guys that run these races. Put these races on. So no, truly like I've respected, I respect what you guys do and have for a long time and it's been really fun to watch you guys grow and do the things that you're doing.

I know I wanted you guys on earlier, but really it's probably a perfect time because now you're resting for a month-ish, and then you get right back into it, and then you don't stop [00:44:00] for another year. Yeah, that's right.

Anne Barnwell: It's, it can be a lot, life is busy. We, sure it's busy for everyone listening too we appreciate everyone who comes out and runs or volunteers or both and, it's, it just, it's a great, it's a great community.

Yes. It's,

Chris Detzel: I feel like you guys probably aren't gonna add any more races. 'Cause it seems like you're pretty full or you never know. You

Chris Barnwell: never say never. Never say never. Okay. It's you know what I'll say is, it's like the wheels are always turning. Okay. The wheels are all.

Earnings. I have to be restrained, oftentimes, okay, here's the, but won't, the other thing is I gotta leave space for my own running tool. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really what the challenge is because, it's if you're doing, races on the frequency that you know, that we are, it gets tough.

It gets tough to fit your own training in,

Anne Barnwell: So here's the thing. Imagine I'm not against adding other races. He can add more races. But you heard it on, you heard it on

Chris Detzel: DFW Running Talk.

Anne Barnwell: But it's not to add.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean it's more,

Anne Barnwell: is just more, [00:45:00] yep. It's not better. It's actually, I would argue it's probably worse.

It's, it has to be the right race. It has to be a good race. It has to be a good trail. And it has to make sense with all that in mind. And it has to be authentic to who we are and especially who Chris is. That's right. Yeah. So sometimes he'll be like, oh, do we have to add?

I'm like, no. It's okay. Not every trail needs a race on it. Some trails are crappy and really don't need a race on. Exactly. And that's the truth of the matter. So we try to be really smart about it.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Thank you guys for coming on so much. Really do appreciate it. Again, I respect the hell of all the things that you're doing.

Thank you everyone for tuning in to another DFW Running Talk. Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter at DFW running talk.substack.com. I'm Chris Detzel Anne and Chris from Blaze Trails running here on DFW Running Talk. Thank you both for coming on.

Anne Barnwell: Thank you. Thank

Chris Detzel: you for

Chris Barnwell: having us.

Anne Barnwell: Thanks for doing this and for all you doing the community.