Elite Runner, Coaching, Stroller Records, and Golden Tickets: The Cal Neff Story

DFW Running Talk: Cal Nef
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Chris Detzel: [00:00:00] Welcome to DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel. So let's get started.

All right. Welcome to another DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel. And today we have our special guest, Cal Neth. Cal, how are you?

Cal Nef: Hey, good afternoon. Thanks for having me on. Just digging out of the Texas snowstorm.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. I heard about that. You're in Houston, right?

Cal Nef: Yeah. I'm just on the outside, the West side of Houston and the whole Gulf area.

I just assumed it was coming from the North. Did you have any snow up in the DFW area?

Chris Detzel: No. But it's cold as hell, like it was 20 to 24 degrees. But yeah, you guys get tons of snow, which is rare for Houston area.

Cal Nef: Yeah. So just amazing coming off, like Houston's busiest weekend of running is the Houston marathon.

We're just coming onto that. And it's just amazing that 24 hours earlier it would have been too warm, 24 hours later it would have been canceled ~with~ snow and ice. [00:01:00]

Chris Detzel: Yeah, and by the way, you ran a great race in Houston this last Sunday, so congratulations.

Cal Nef: Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, that was Chevron Marathon number seven for the full, and I've done three of the half marathons there for the Aramco.

Yeah. And paced quite a few of those. I think that was my probably fourth time just as an official pacer, but always out there racing myself on top of it.

Chris Detzel: So Sunday you're actually officially pacing, you aren't racing necessarily.

Cal Nef: Yeah. They, I guess that's the last three times I've run Houston. Now they've asked me ahead of time either an individual specific athlete will request a certain time, or in this case the race itself needed to fill.

The Olympic A standard which people are trying to get to the World Athletic Championships in August in Tokyo. So it was a, for the women it's 2 23 30. They just had a group going out at that time. And that's your pace, 2 23. That was my job. Yeah. Get them through halfway and about 1 11 30, we came through [00:02:00] and just under one hour and 11 minutes for the half.

So setting them up perfect for a little bit harder of a rougher back half of Houston this year with the wind that we had.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Did you find that because it was windy and cold was a little harder than usual or?

Cal Nef: I definitely had my work cut out for me this year. Sometimes it's a little bit calmer and it's just a matter of running the right tangent lines, running the shortest course, getting the athlete lined up for their drinks ahead of time and just staying on pace.

So usually it's pretty metronomic, but this time it was like get big ahead of the pack and, try to take as much of the wind it's pacing is like, honestly, almost like the opposite of everything you want to do, everything you've learned, everything coach wants you to do, it's do the opposite.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. I've not paced at the level that you have, but certainly I've paced several half marathons and even one or so marathons in the past, it's a little different now you've paced like Sarah Hall and some others in the past, right?

Cal Nef: Yeah, Sarah Hall was one of the first like [00:03:00] more notable ones that I had paced and then Kira D'Amato paced a couple times and we had, really good luck.

We were both with Sarah and Kira were chasing that old American record. And finally with Kira Houston three years ago. We were able to get that at 219 low. So it was a magical day. I saw you

Chris Detzel: guys going through, we were, we're in the half and then we started watching all the full marathon folks go through and I was like, Oh my God, my wife was like jumping up and down, so yeah, great job. That was, it's going to be fun.

Cal Nef: Thanks, but I've enjoyed my time racing up your way as well. DFW has some great areas, racing, especially on the road. And surprisingly, it's hard to find road 50 Ks and that's got to be just like my Favorite niche kind of race distance and terrain.

So yeah, I've won both the Cowtown 50 and the Dallas 50K now.

Chris Detzel: I know I've seen that. And it's funny because back in October you ran a race and it's reading what is that race in DC or something? Yeah,

Cal Nef: the Marine Corps.

Chris Detzel: [00:04:00] Yeah, didn't you win it again and I was listening to your 'cause of podcast or what?

Reading something that you weren't feeling well that day. You weren't in second place for a while and then you were also videoing it and I was like, he's videoing this and he wins.

Cal Nef: Yeah. That was, and it wasn't year prior . Oh, okay. Yeah. The year prior I just took my little camera along for the ride and had fun with it and yeah.

This year, it just didn't feel as smooth, but it was able to still knock it out.

Chris Detzel: Yeah,

Cal Nef: it's something else.

Chris Detzel: I won't get to your journey here in a minute, but I'm just very interested in some of these things. And something else that I read is you had one of your kids in a stroller and was this in Canada?

And then you won a stroller race. So like you get the world record.

Cal Nef: Is that right? Yeah. Been a bit of a claim to fame. Almost haunts me to these days now, my, my girls are, all three of them are old enough to run with me now. So that's pretty cool to see, but yeah.

And I guess it was, yeah, the 2015 or so I started doing some five [00:05:00] Ks just locally or, I was training with them. So I was, I had, I have three girls and was training with them in the stroller, nothing out of the usual, but realized we're clipping off some pretty good miles sometimes, some good workouts.

Jumped in a local 5k, I think we ran 1540 or something, it's sub 16, won the whole thing. And then it was just got the wheels turning literally that, what's possible out there. And my middle child Holland actually joined me for the first kind of big time race we did.

And that was the Katie half marathon. And, lined up all of the requirements for these Guinness world records. There's so many like evidence things that you need, USA qualified course and race director sign off timing. The whole thing was just a lot of hoops to jump through. Not in addition to running, faster than anybody has ever run with a stroller,

Chris Detzel: which

Cal Nef: was, they were legitimate records.

Like actually, if you look in the Guinness book of world records at all the silly marathon records, of costumes and. Juggling and basketballs and all this stuff. I think the stroller one, and I'm not being biased here, but it's like the most legitimate, like it's just [00:06:00] straight up running and I'm pushing a kid.

There's no like, it's not a circus, but yeah, we ran 111 with my little one right before she turned one. And then had an older child above her, Ali. And we went up to Toronto and ran the Toronto Waterfront Marathon, which is an incredible race. And Ali was actually the first Canadian woman to cross the finish line that day in two hours, 31 of course had the power of me behind her, but.

And that was like actually Canadian nationals. So I was fifth that day. And we actually made a little bit of money just from the U S or the Canadian nationals championships. And then having the third girl, little Maya, I was like, man, I can't afford the therapy bills if you didn't get me a world record, daddy.

So we had to line that up pretty quick. And I was supposed to be in Tokyo for the marathon. I was in super good shape. I just got back from an altitude training stint. I was ready to go for my best marathon and COVID hit like literally that week. So all the international travel started shutting down, but [00:07:00] Houston and Texas was just a little bit behind that curve of shutting down and we had the rodeo run that weekend, and so I jumped in that instead of the marathon, despite not really training for that speed and was able to run 31, 41.

With my, she was, I think, four years old at the time. So 506 per mile. So that's a 10K that you were in. For the 10K, yeah. So ended up with all three, the 10K, the half and the full marathon records for each one. Are they still

Chris Detzel: older?

Cal Nef: The half was broken a couple of years ago, just under 111, 20 something.

Or under 111 maybe. So it's still there. It could maybe get the, dust off the stroller again, maybe. How old's your

Chris Detzel: youngest now?

Cal Nef: Yeah, we have, so now we have 12, nine, seven, and we have a three year old. So yeah.

Chris Detzel: We got three year old. There you go. I

Cal Nef: know. Yeah. Perfect.

Chris Detzel: Maybe. It's still pretty fast.

Hey, thank you for all that. It's a really, look I didn't know, or I wanted to hear those stories, you're obviously a fantastic runner and you've been doing this for some time. [00:08:00] We'd love to hear your story, like how'd you get started into running when, did you begin in high school, middle school, went into college, et cetera?

Cal Nef: Yeah way before that. So I just, I was part of an active family, so my, my dad was running fun runs, marathons, 10 Ks. And mom obviously supported that. And I did just one of those typical kids runs as part of the Cajun Cup in 1988 in Lafayette, Louisiana. We were living over there for a number of years and I was only four years old.

And so now it just hit 40 this past August. It's been what's that? Yeah. 36 years of running and it just came easy to me. It's just something that's been not really a labor to run. Obviously, I, I do hard workouts, I do hard races and things, but like in general it's, I'm definitely had some talent there, had some genetics.

And enjoyed it and was able to just progress through school, we started moving a lot. That was already my second home in [00:09:00] Lafayette from moving from Scotland. And when we moved to England and Thailand and Canada and Australia, it was all these different schools. What the hell did your family do?

Yeah. My dad was also in the oil field, so it was just constant, chasing these jobs around.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

Cal Nef: Okay.

Chris Detzel: Peace.

Cal Nef: Yeah. I came from a loving family. It wasn't like I was shipped off constantly.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, I

Cal Nef: was with, you

Chris Detzel: know. Yeah, no, it makes sense, but still, you're going to all these cool places, but you're still moving around.

Cal Nef: Yeah, and it just, it didn't really matter where we ended up. It was always that, first few weeks of awkwardness and then gym class would come around or some kind of sporting event would come around and I would just break out in stride, and my running was what really shined and defined me.

And so it was definitely something that I didn't have to, tell people about. It just shone naturally for me and competed. Even when we were in Australia, I was on varsity. So our school went all the way to 12th grade. And I was, I think, still in, in middle school competing varsity.

And just no matter where we lived, I [00:10:00] knew that the NCAA system here in the U S was where you wanted to end up and that's, that was just one of my biggest goals. So I was in Canada, finishing up high school and running indoor outdoor track cross country and met a coach from Little Rock, Arkansas, actually, and ended up going to school for the first three years in Little Rock and running track there and a really great guy and a great coach.

And. He ended up leaving to a different program that I couldn't follow him to. And so I ended up transferring to university of Houston. So I finished up collegiate career, which was okay. It was fine. I ran four 10 or a little bit faster in the mile indoors and nothing crazy these days.

And I think we had five kids at the same school around three under four minutes, just this last weekend. So yeah the times have changed,

Chris Detzel: shoes and stuff like that back then there was none of that,

Cal Nef: yeah, for sure. And, and it just, I was always focused on my bubble of stuff going on and, my conference or city and region and things like that.

It would have been really [00:11:00] nice. I think social media can be really bad, but at least you have exposure to what else is happening in the world. Like I didn't, I didn't know that a lot of these guys were out there running as fast as they were, even in my day. We just watched Ryan Hall's half marathon record get beaten this weekend.

That was a really good record.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. 18 years.

Cal Nef: Yeah. So there's just things like that I wish I knew about when I was a kid that would have maybe driven me or progressed me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you know, it's fun to be the best in your school, your class or whatever, that's that.

How about best in the

Chris Detzel: world?

Cal Nef: Yeah, exactly. So I always encourage people just to know what else is out there. But I took a break after college definitely running and defined my life for the whole, up until that point. So it was nice to take a little break, but.

I just started finding naturally, it seemed like before it was even a sport, trail running and I was running on trails. It just back in, even not that long ago, it didn't seem like it was its own thing. I know people have been running trails since the dawn of existence, but what we have now is [00:12:00] just far different.

So I just found my love again of being out in the mountains in Canada before I moved back down to Texas and continue to enjoy. That aspect of running and now it's its own niche sport, but you have a lot of jobs at the moment Yeah,

Chris Detzel: we're

Cal Nef: a lot of hats.

Chris Detzel: I was doing a little bit of research and I see that you're running coach You own trot now and so you're doing some of the trail races there You're very active runner still you still run with you know some of the elites or help some of the women elites anyways to get to their times and you're still winning races.

You basically won. The masters. So congratulations on, is it your first master's to win or?

Cal Nef: Yeah yeah. So I turned 40 in August, which officially for, USATF worlds puts you in that master's category. That's right. And yeah, some, something new to chase. There's records and divisions there, but I guess I won Marine Corps.

So that would have been top master there. And then, for the marathon, [00:13:00] that was my first official marathon as a 40 year old. So this past Sunday. Running 224 with the, just nipping some of those kids out for the spot, for local elite and everything. So yeah, I'm still chasing it.

I haven't given up even, I feel like this might be a delusional, but I feel like I could still challenge my little younger self and even as fast as the mile, I wouldn't mind cracking back down on the track sometime and seeing what's possible.

Chris Detzel: I feel like it's. Look, I'm almost 50, so I'm not sure that, I can do my best anymore, but I'm still raking PRs that, when I was 40, that I was in my best shape, and I'm still doing, and I don't know, you've been doing it for a really long time, and look, when you're 25 years old, and things like that, you're You've got a lot of, the talent that you had there, I don't know, maybe it dissipates a little bit, but I think it's still doable, potentially,

Cal Nef: and just so much more, experience is so valuable, especially in the marathon and things.

So some of the athletes I coach are well [00:14:00] under their forties, fifties and still PR ing Really old personal best that they've had. So it's exciting to work with people that just really needed a bit different type of guidance or a little bit different stimulus. And then, a little bit different tactics on how to approach things.

And it's, some people see me as elite and therefore think I only coach elite or only put on elite races when it comes to trail racing for Texas or my hard loop endurance coaching, but. It's just far from the truth and, I branch out. It's I'm not, I don't just focus myself on one specific distance of, only running low two hour marathons.

It's, I've chased the six hour mark. It was at comrades, but like for people that are chasing six hours on the roads before they shut down at marathons, I know what that's like to be on your feet that long I've done some pretty long stuff out there and it definitely takes a different approach and it can be applied to different training types.

Chris Detzel: I find your skill set unique because of, Hey, yeah, you are an elite, marathon runner, half marathon runner or whatever. [00:15:00] But like you said, he runs 50 K's, you're even from what I read, get a hundred K coming up and said you run comrades. So you're and you own a trail racing company, so, I think that's rare.

How did you you mentioned you like trail running, but what. What was the opportunity of, hey, you can be a racetrack? What did that look like?

Cal Nef: Yeah, I'd always been putting on events, even from college. I had a college side job coaching, and for part of that role was putting on cross country meets for the youth that I was working with and having inter school competitions and things.

Definitely was starting to already get that experience myself of actually being an event coordinator and, helping out at races. And I think the volunteerism is such a critical part of especially trail running and something that's really not being handed down. So I'm always trying to encourage that, the elders to pass this type of thing down to the youth that just think they can show up and run and go home.

There's a lot behind the scenes and I've been there, have been a volunteer at many different road and trail [00:16:00] races and yeah, I was working full time, I was behind a desk for a long time and my coaching was building and it was like almost to a point where, I was like, I can, I think I can run and coach and just do that and that'd be great, but it was maybe too risky.

And then. Trail racing over Texas was actually winding down, it was about to disappear, and fortunately I had the inside line to that and I walked away from that conversation hearing that I can't let this die, I can't see this either go to the wrong hands or. Just disappear because this community is so strong and, especially, a lot of people in the Houston area don't even know we have trails.

So yeah, the fact that, we can expose people to just wilderness and being outside and the alternative of being on the pavement and getting off the road, that was such a key component and also just fit that final puzzle piece I was missing in my life of, how do I. How do I do this passion, this thing I'm so passionate about, how do I bring all the experiences that I've had the opportunity to have, with comrades and going to world championships [00:17:00] and competing in these various events, how can I bring just little pieces of those back here to my local trail races and give that to people around here.

And so it all just made sense. And it was a great opportunity that I am so happy that. I had the chance to take on and definitely every single race I put on as another opportunity to learn something

Chris Detzel: never

Cal Nef: short of feedback in this world. That's for sure. We all have our

Chris Detzel: opinions.

Cal Nef: Yeah. Yeah.

It's impossible to make every single person happy, no matter how hard I try. But I think I've grown a lot as a professional and as a person and last even just as we've been over two years now of putting on over 10 events a year and finding, finding the stride.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. How, what have you learned with what, I'm curious, it's 10 events a year is a lot, just to just step in and I'm sure maybe you went to a few before you started it, but I

Cal Nef: mean, It's the thing I was part of trail racing where Texas from the very beginning [00:18:00] before it was even trail racing where Texas, I was at the very first kind of free run that we had here in Memorial park in Houston and saw it grow and competed and helped and grew with it.

As well as an athlete. So always in the mix and always a lot of these ideas, that the trail racing over Texas is so unique because we have, these fun races and names and themes to the events that, bring people in. A lot of those were some of those original ideas were just from chats that we were all having, like Habanero 100 happened because I nearly killed myself on a hot long run in July.

And it was like that'd be a great race.

Chris Detzel: I've run that a few times and people are crazy and we'll do the a hundred mile or a hundred K I've done the 10 K a couple of times. And I thought to myself okay, this race is ridiculous. It starts at noon and you just rob whatever the distance is five K, 10, a hundred, whatever it is.

And I thought it's ridiculous. I'm driving six hours just to, from 10 K, but I did twice,

Cal Nef: that was one I just say, I had to take that race over so I never have to run it. [00:19:00] Yeah, exactly. Even though race directing that thing is no joke. You think the runners are out there for, the day.

It's we had three days of setup and three more days of teardown to go in the same heat. Yeah.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

Cal Nef: After the race is gone. Yeah. That one, for example, and then, one that's coming up here shortly is a San Felipe shootout. That was an idea I had. It was just like, Hey, it wouldn't be cool to just like pit runners of like different abilities against each other in different events all in the same day.

So you can come out and do a 5k, 10k, and a half marathon back to back all in the same day and then you get a cumulative time and we'll see you can come out on top. I like

Chris Detzel: that. I like that a lot actually.

Cal Nef: Yeah. Just fun stuff like that. And, it's things that I've always been a part of and wanted to see, I do get tired of the standard gun start race to the finish distance.

I think that's been done hundreds of times every weekend, right? Thousands of times. It's every single thing that's happening in running world. There's some really cool events out there wings for life [00:20:00] world run, for example, is that like elimination race or we're seeing the.

Really the search insurgents of the backyard ultra, people are hungry for different formats and different ways to challenge themselves.

Chris Detzel: I talked to this woman. Her name is what's her name? Megan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cal Nef: She

Chris Detzel: ran she's here in Dallas and she ran the backyard. I don't know if she won it Latin this last year she got 175 miles, just, it took her 40 something, 50 hours, I don't remember.

But. But yeah, it was pretty, pretty crazy to hear about that story. So she's going to try to go back and win it this year as well.

Cal Nef: Great. Yeah. And so I guess I'm learning that, from race directing is, the thing, the reason I race are not the same reasons that you might race or in other people and what you care about and your experience might be is completely different from what I'm going there to, to obtain, meaning kind of like I said earlier yeah, I'm, I compete on a, [00:21:00] an elite level. And so I'm there for fast times and podiums. And, I probably don't care too much about anything else. I probably don't even touch the aid stations too much. I'm bringing my own stuff and, the shirt's going to go to donation and the metal is going to go in a bin, which that's for most people anyway.

But, I, I do learn that the details that people come for so different and. I really do work hard at learning those, adjusting and building that to, to suit. So definitely I'm always like a stickler for rules, because that's what I follow and I believe everyone should just have a even level playing field, but at the same time, the aesthetics of a race.

The artwork that goes into it, just how the course runs and the flow. And then of course, I'm very critical. And so anytime it doesn't even have to be a running event, I could be going to a concert or the grocery store or something that has a flow of public and looking at that from a completely different perspective and saying, Hey, this works really well.

Or, [00:22:00] this really agitated me today. Like this could have been done better and, and that's the kind of things you start as an event director bringing into it. And then of course, safety is just such a huge component. Fortunately, I come from the oil field myself and that was just drilled into me.

But I have a passion for search and rescue. I'm on Texas search and rescue as a volunteer. And yeah, just what I needed, another hat. There

Chris Detzel: to

Cal Nef: have, it's my way of giving back, but also the training that I'm receiving there and the teams that I'm working with and that people really give me experience to, to handle really high stress, something like Cabanero really well, and to be able to work with emergency management for these events is super important.

Chris Detzel: I think that's key. I've been at some of those races to where somebody has died, and. So what do you do from an emergency standpoint and, how do you take care of the racers that are still doing it, but then also the person that just passed and then, it's rarely happens, but it has, I've seen it,

Cal Nef: yeah. And that's where I don't have a lot of patience [00:23:00] when I go to other events that are not prepared. You don't see that they have plans and resources ready for that to happen, cause it's really just a matter of time. When you have general population showing up, it's just odds at some point of, something, somebody bringing in some pre existing condition or having some type of accident along the way.

How

Chris Detzel: do you look at expansion, of the races? Are you thinking about that in the future? Or is it, 10's enough, that's all I can do? Or what does that look like for you?

Cal Nef: Yeah. Yeah. I think again, keeping things fresh, I think people are, yeah, are hungry for different challenges, different places.

And I'm always looking at what other things or parks or places, venues are underutilized or ideas and formats that could be used. And the Backyard Ultra was something that we added just this past, we just ran our second one and went really well and people really enjoy that format. So it's something that's sticking around.

We've added a cross country meet just to [00:24:00] appeal to a little bit different crowd and something I'm passionate about and bring in more of the youth. We've added free kids races, which has been a lot of fun. Those are my fun, funnest 30 seconds of, racing to watch cause those kids don't touch the ground.

So yeah, always looking at that. I think what I've learned, especially when it comes to habanero, it's like bigger is not always better. There's a manageable amount of people. And again, that goes straight back to the, what you can handle from an emergency perspective. So I'm always careful that to grow it too big and people don't always want that experience either.

I think I've seen from the roadside of things, I have a lot of athletes that have been chasing these world majors, the six, seven star now, and this year all came back, whether it's Tokyo, London, Chicago, Berlin with Awful experiences. They hated it. It was too many people. We're pushing, what did they hit?

50 something thousand people. And [00:25:00] they can't handle it. And it's too crowded. You can't run. You're just another number.

Chris Detzel: Have you ever been, and being an elite athlete, maybe you haven't, but in a pile of that many people. It's ridiculous.

Cal Nef: Yeah. Yeah, usually I'm on the front end of that, but I, one year I actually did a fundraiser for the Houston Marathon Foundation and I was the last person to start.

Now the race is a little bit smaller, 20, 000, but I passed 11, 000 people. In one hour and nine minutes of running, but I knew what it was like to be in the corrals and yeah, and feel that, yeah, that pressure in there.

Chris Detzel: I'm just saying that with 50, 000 or whatever it is, it's, can't be a fun experience, fine.

If you're an elite race, runner, you get of the best, but I just qualify, you're in B corral, C or whatever, trying to get through some of that is tough for sure.

Cal Nef: Yeah. So then that's where, the trail. It's just this really nice, unique thing you come and you set up your tent [00:26:00] with a hundred of other people setting up their tents and you hang out and camp all weekend and talk to each other and you don't get that experience on the roads.

Chris Detzel: I agree. I think, I've done a lot of trail running and also road running. I do think that. Both experiences were really great to me, right? I love the road, but I also love the experience of the trail because of the relationships. I remember, when I started trail running quite a bit, I joined Dallas Dirt Runners back in the day and, they had some really great people and built a really good relationships with a lot of those folks and just taught me the trails, it did a lot of that.

But it is, it's like you get this core relationship. We have these road kind of running things that we, I still build relationships with people, it's all the same in a way it's just a different experience and how you do it,

Cal Nef: yeah, just this past weekend, it's just such a great reunion, seeing everybody at the expos and, not only just like the elite and international athletes that I don't get to see too often, it's like big reunion there, but just going to the expo and seeing athletes that, they could [00:27:00] live, in the same city, but we don't, I coach a lot online, so we don't always see each other if we're not showing up to the same group run or something, then, that might be my one chance to actually look them in the eye and have good pre race chat.

We should talk about that in your coaching. How many clients do you coach? Yeah. Hard loop had 50, I think it was right at 50 athletes this past weekend running Houston Marathon. So it's typically one of our busiest weekends other than Boston, which is the other big goal for lots of people. And now I coached, a majority of those, but I have another, other coaches underneath me that help carry the roster.

So I've built a, just a platform to fill in where I'm not as strong. So I have, a physical therapist, a nutritionist, dietician. I have an ultra specific coach, I have a triathlete specific coach, and they can all take these athletes on that I might not either have the right amount of time to give them attention to, or it's not the right wheelhouse of training.

Yeah, we've shared the load, and I've been doing that for, I started coaching, essentially, when I was in college. As I [00:28:00] mentioned, but always just been a, an athlete myself that asks like why we were doing a workout or, trying to understand the training a little bit more, being very in tune with what we're doing.

And so it just came naturally. Always studied it. Always read a lot. Always really looked up to coaches more so than athletes sometimes, and really interested in what they're doing.

Chris Detzel: So I think I've read about some of your workouts that you don't, in general, you're not a high mileage guy.

And so what does that mean to you? I'm not, how many miles are you doing and things like that to prepare for marathon 50 K or whatever?

Cal Nef: Yeah. And so that's for me as coaching myself as an athlete. So yeah, I get that sometimes it's like, Oh, Cal's not a high mileage athlete. Therefore he's not a high mileage coach.

And I have some athletes that are, actually, Sarah Raybourn, she just won the Dallas 50K a couple of weeks ago. She's consistently running between 110, 120 miles a week. So that's one of, one of my athletes. So again, just like I'm [00:29:00] putting on races for all types. It's like I coach all types and they all have their own specific individual needs and requirements for training.

But for myself, just between the amount of time that I dedicate to it each day and what I believe in for recovery, I'm running. I like 30 to 50 miles a week probably is a pretty good average. If I'm really putting in race specific work, it'll get above 50 and more closer to 70. And so last year I had like maybe one week where I was over a hundred, but very seldom, I can count on one hand still in my entire career that I've been over a hundred miles for a week.

Yeah, for

Chris Detzel: me, I know a lot of people that love to do the high mileage, but once I start hitting 50 to 60 miles a week, my body starts breaking down and I'm like, all right my special or my sweet spot is more like. 30 to 40 ish, you

Cal Nef: know,

Chris Detzel: and that's all I'm going to do. And if you feel

Cal Nef: good at that then do that.

If you want to be a better runner, you need to run. And [00:30:00] definitely if someone was, came to me with a really specific goal or for myself, if I really knew I had to go after something, then yeah, the training starts to take shape more towards that. And it would just be more running really. But yeah I always, I love my rest days.

Like I'll take, I have no problems, no, yeah, no like anxiety about missing a day. And I think it's important people know that, yeah even the best are taking those down days or down weeks and taking time off after big races. It's easy to get in that trap of just keep the fitness going.

I got this fit and I don't want to lose it. You're not going to lose it here. It'll be fine. You'll actually gain more from taking those downtimes and recovery.

Chris Detzel: I love it. I think that's, you've been doing this for a long time from a coaching standpoint. And and you've been doing the running.

So what else are you into? What, I'm sure you've got some other, like your social media is pretty happening. You're get this great website. You've got a couple of jobs. What else do you do? We're just.

Cal Nef: I love flying and very specifically hang gliding and paragliding, so no [00:31:00] motor, just somehow getting in the air, whether that's flying off a ridge, a mountain or getting towed up with these winches that we have, but getting into the air and then trying to find lift and stay up for as long as possible, thermal and up under a big puffy cloud and trying to fly for as far as possible. That's another, what do you do that at? Around here it's obviously all flat, but go down to an airport and get towed up for the hang gliding or get behind a, the redneck option is behind somebody's truck and they towed out on a winch and.

Something else I just grew up around and we actually live at an airport now, which is cool where you live at a, like a fly in community and it allows us to host the business here on the property and in a warehouse, which is a hangar. So serving a dual purpose there. It's just a super unique life.

And pretty much any week I could wander over to somebody else's hangar and put out a thumb and hitch a lift and some cool plane and go for a ride. That's on the list this year, [00:32:00] get the private pilot's license along with my wife. And yeah, we're going to, we're going to be sharing that journey as we go.

Chris Detzel: That's pretty awesome. So is your wife involved in the business? I assume, or?

Cal Nef: Very, yeah, she just dove in headfirst. She's got a very different brain than I do. It's very yeah, loves finances, loves data analysis, loves processes and procedure. And it's a very good compliment to. To the operations guy here.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Yeah. To the operations guy.

Cal Nef: Yeah. The one that likes to be dirty and on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. But yeah she's run a hundred miles. She's done quite a few races herself from road and trail and she understands the sport and yeah, so really great to have her and yeah, just very talented herself and just being able to see the business or for what it needs.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, I heard a recent, I don't know if it's a podcast, but that the two of you guys do a podcast together or?

Cal Nef: Yeah. We decided to [00:33:00] finally launch it this year. We'd been talking about it for a while and it shares the same name as my Instagram handle, The Neff Pace. So it's just like the pace of our life and what we're up to with this.

So many facets of what we're doing between aviation and running and everything in between and raising the kids and it's pretty cool. Traveling around and racing.

Chris Detzel: Now you're podcast. So do it a lot of stuff. I think that's crazy, man. You're. A thousand different things. So interesting. I love it.

What's next?

Cal Nef: Yeah. Heading off to Black Canyon, 100K, and I need a bit of a redemption there. My wife, Rachel, actually paced me in the final 12 miles, which I was like, no offense, but if that happens again, it's not a good day for me.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

Cal Nef: She was offended. But so yeah, it's funny because, I had this road marathon to prepare for, and obviously it's very specific, especially to the pace I've run in basically 520 a mile on the road, [00:34:00] and now I have to switch gears and, if I was to run a course record at Black Canyon, it's basically 720 a mile, so two minutes a mile slower for a lot many more hours.

But on very different terrain but, I was using Houston as a training round for that. Didn't kill myself there. So I came out unscathed and put down a ton of nutrition. I was able to really, I was 130 grams an hour of carbohydrates. Is that rare for

Chris Detzel: you?

Cal Nef: I've always been a pretty iron stomach, and I think a lot of that's attributed to just being a dad and have dinner with the family and then get on a treadmill pretty soon after once they're down for bed and just been doing that for so many years.

It doesn't matter if I have a steak and potatoes or whatever in my stomach, I can still go for a good run.

Chris Detzel: Chili cheese dog, whatever.

Cal Nef: Yeah, I'm sure there's some limits.

Chris Detzel: Maybe that's the limit. We don't

Cal Nef: try those on race day. That's the main thing.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Exactly.

Cal Nef: But yeah, so just trying to switch gears and, obviously golden ticket is the big chase right now for the trail world is to get [00:35:00] into Western states.

This is my, what did I just write? I was just reviewing 12th year with Ultra. So I've been sponsored by Ultra running and yeah, they're, I really want as many of their athletes on the start line in Western States. And so I'm making that push with them. And if Black Canyon doesn't go well, my backup is going to the Canyon, 100K, which is another golden ticket race.

And yeah, I just have to find these races that slot in between our own events that we're putting on and everything else that's happening. So we'll see, it's like weird to set up a race schedule that's dependent on coming top three to get into the next thing. So we'll see what the rest of the year looks like after states, but we'll be up there anyway, being in the Tahoe, Reno, Tahoe area for the summer is our favorite thing to do.

So that's where you'll find us.

Chris Detzel: Are you guys interested in ever becoming, and maybe one of your races has that At least qualifying for Western States or anything like that. Yeah, so the Brazos

Cal Nef: Ben 100 is a big qualifier. We have a lot of people get in through that one. People are always asking [00:36:00] about Altered Chal de Mont Blanc, the UTMB stone index points and things like that.

So we, we submit our results there as well for people to get into that. So yeah big dog's backyard is another big qualifier one. So getting like the bronze and the silver coins for Laz's events in the backyard ultra world. Yeah we're stepping stone to. To a number of events along the way.

Chris Detzel: Is this the first time that you've really tried to get into Western States?

Cal Nef: See, I was at so I did 125k race in Canada, the Canadian death race in 2000. And I'm trying to remember now, 13. Okay. And that was a qualifier. So I had a ticket and put my name in the lotto. And of course, even back then when it wasn't as crazy, pretty low chances.

And then I got a ticket last year at Black Canyon, just a regular draw entry. I've been in the draw a few times. Got it. Yeah, still chasing the golden ticket way. Yeah, no, that makes sense. But I've paced there three times at Western States. Okay. Been there as crew. [00:37:00] Crew and pacer. Definitely know the course quite a bit now from being out there.

Chris Detzel: Hopefully it's time to do it. I'll be watching. That'll be fun to see. It all depends who shows up. Do you know who's gonna show up? Oh man,

Cal Nef: yeah. I made the mistake or maybe the, a good call of looking at the field today, going through that the entries for black Canyon. And it's again, it's stacked anyone who's anyone's going.

And it's just incredible. It really is describe it as basically like NCAA 10 K cross country regional meet for a hundred kilometers for 10 times the distance. It just goes out like crazy. And you just got to hold on tight. I

Chris Detzel: think Jim Wamsley will try to go for, or is he already? Okay.

Cal Nef: He would be in from States this past year.

I've heard rumors that we have Killian coming back. To States, so I think he's in. Yeah, I'm already looking forward to States, even just as a spectator, as a fan of the sport.

Chris Detzel: I love it, man. Look, I [00:38:00] always think, I've always been a big fan of Wamsley. Killian Juneau's been great to see. I always think, he's getting a little older, but he's still Killian.

Yeah, he

Cal Nef: wants one last, one last run on it before he calls it, I think.

Chris Detzel: Okay. All right. I like we're

Cal Nef: seeing I think we saw Kipchoges coming back for London. That's big news lately. Yeah. We're excited to see what he does. He needs a redemption from past couple of performances there.

Chris Detzel: I kinda wonder if he'll ever go back to Boston, try again. Scott?

Cal Nef: Yeah, I hope so. Absolutely. I hope so. Yeah, that's right. Boston was that first glimpse we saw of humanity in a human.

Chris Detzel: Look, everybody has a bad race, even Kachowki, that's the thing, yeah. We saw it for once.

Cool, man. This has been, there's some things I should have asked that I just didn't ask.

Cal Nef: I'm just happy to shoot and run in here, as much as wondering, what's in the DFW area that I haven't done that is worth checking out. What would you recommend?

Chris Detzel: Like the two biggest races, one is, you've already done the Dallas, okay and also the Caltown.

[00:39:00] So that, that's coming up here in February. They have some cool 5k races and K and maybe even half beer athons, but other than that, man, that's what we have,

Cal Nef: you

Chris Detzel: know, those are the two big ones.

Cal Nef: I really enjoyed it just North of you. My first visit recently to Mount Scott. In Oklahoma.

Really?

Chris Detzel: Not heard of that.

Cal Nef: Yeah. It's just this really cool spiral road that went to the peak of a mountain, a pretty sizable one. Maybe only took 20 or so minutes to get to the top, but it was a good run, like just solid grade the whole way. I know Camille Heron's kind of trained there quite a bit for her comrade stuff.

And I really enjoyed my time going up just north of you guys in that area, but definitely need to explore that North Texas a little bit more.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, man, you should think about a race or something, putting something out here at some point. I know, it's a drive though, so I don't know if you like to do that.

It's a pain, I'm sure. [00:40:00]

Cal Nef: Always driving. Yeah, so for me, like switching gears now, really, and trying to get on trail and as specific to Black Canyon as possible. So yeah, this weekend we'll be driving out, trying to find some good single track. We'll likely be more in the Fredericksburg area, so Enchanted Rock.

In hill country, just trying to get, geared up for a long time on the trail and then it'll all switch gears again, depending on what's next.

Chris Detzel: What's any big road races at the end of the year that you're thinking about or not really?

Cal Nef: If depending on like how Black Canyon would go and then canyons there's one I've always wanted to do called the strolling gym.

And Laz's races. It's a 40 miler in Tennessee on the roads, hilly. And it's got a really iconic and historic presence there of what people have run, Walmsley's been there and definitely some of the legends of our sports. It's cool to go to those test pieces I call yeah comrades is and I think that's originally what you saw I was answering somebody's question online in the DFW kind of [00:41:00] forum there that was Got into comrades, which is amazing.

If I only had to do one race a year, it probably would be comrades. If I could just, if I only had to do one ever, it's just so it's such an incredible experience. There's a lot of people that's 20, 30, 000 people now running point to point like a Boston, very hilly, 6, 000 feet of climbing or descending, depending which way you go each year and probably like one of the most competitive fields.

You'll have 200 guys running. Darn near sub six pace for the first two hours. I think that's doable for you now. Yeah, so I've been up there. Definitely top 10 there would be a stretch lifetime goal that I would want to achieve. I've been close, been under six hours for their, what was it, 50 something miles.

Yeah, it's, definitely need to get back there and keep racking up the number of finishes there. Get to that, that 10, 10 time finisher would be nice.

Chris Detzel: My wife [00:42:00] she was accepted to go there and then COVID hit got pushed. Yeah. And then I just never, she just

Cal Nef: never went it's a long way to go, that's for sure. It's, yeah. Yeah. It's a hard place to get to, and if you're going, you might as well spend some good chunk of time there.

Chris Detzel: We weren't going to spend two or three weeks there, because. Yeah,

Cal Nef: you really have to.

Chris Detzel: It takes three days to get there, yeah,

Cal Nef: I, I had a really great trip my last time there two years ago. So I ran Comrades on the Sunday, could barely walk on Monday. The down just destroys you. It's yeah, 6, 000 feet of descent and a large majority of that in the final marathon on highway, coming into Durban on the down year. The up year doesn't beat you up hardly as much at all, even though you still have 4, 000 feet of descent in that.

It's just definitely a different beast, but yeah, I could not do stairs, I was getting on an airplane on a Monday. Yeah. And getting on a flight to go to climb Kilimanjaro. So I ended up Are you serious? I was like, this is either the best or the [00:43:00] worst idea I've ever had, but it actually was nice for the acclimatization.

So you really don't want to rush altitude, especially getting up above 10, 12, 15, 16, 18, 000 feet. That you get on Kilimanjaro. It's you really got to pace yourself. Having run Comrades just three days earlier from starting the climb was actually perfect for me.

Chris Detzel: Kind of a junkie for these endurance things and just running fast, adventure, I love it. I think it's awesome. And look, you're doing two jobs that allows you to give back in a way. You know what I mean?

Cal Nef: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Having fun with it. And then trying to combine it, just like I combine being a dad and running with the strollers, it's there's this whole other new niche sports.

I was just reading about a new one today. What they call it it's like schema. So the ski mountaineering, but now they have I think it's flymo or something. So basically you're racing trail running to the top of a peak. With really light flying gear, then pulling it out of your bag and paragliding or speed [00:44:00] winging down, speed wing down to the bottom.

Chris Detzel: Ooh, that sounds fun.

Cal Nef: Yeah. So there's these events that are happening. I don't think I'll ever get the the wife approval, but the Red Bull X Alps in Europe is a huge hike and fly race. That's been going on for a number of years. That would be a dream to do something like that.

Chris Detzel: One of the things that is very interesting to me is, so I get to go up, I have a friend that lives in a place called Antsy, France.

So it's on the border of France and Switzerland, and it's the most beautiful place, but lots of people are doing paragliding and things like that. And it's just fun to watch. Like I'll be up at the top of the mountain, they're just running and going off the mountain. I'm like, holy shit.

Cal Nef: Yeah. And that's why I'm glad you said, you're into a lot of, what'd you say, like endurance and adventure.

You didn't, you never said that I was into a lot of adrenaline and that's the truth. Like none of what I do, I find is like a adrenaline rush the way a lot of people mistake it for. Even the flying is quite peaceful, like you were just describing.

I [00:45:00] just love the human powered, human propelled, connected with nature and being natural.

Chris Detzel: You've got. One of the most interesting lives that I know. I love it. You're, you've been running for a long time. You have a couple of businesses in that your wife is a runner and she's in the business and your kids are probably taking after. Wow, I love it. That's really, it sounds like a lot of fun.

Cal Nef: Yeah, thanks. It's great to get some opportunity to share it with people and yeah, they can always connect with me after if they're interested in any little aspect of that and how I can share that going forward. Yeah, always feel free to reach out, come out to some of our races and yeah, see you online.

Chris Detzel: You definitely see me online and a lot of folks from Dallas run Dallas Fort Worth run your races. So I'll definitely push that into our show notes and everything else. So Cal, thanks so much. This has been really a pleasure to have you on and thanks for coming on.

Cal Nef: Yeah, no, I appreciate it.

We'll finally be a little bit closer to you now. We got Mission Tejas coming back. It's a race further north, uh, more central to us. So yeah, hopefully it [00:46:00] passed. Yeah that's a great one. DFW area can easily make their way down to Mission Tejas. We're back there in November. So really looking forward to being closer to the north again.

Sweet. Yeah, I might

Chris Detzel: take a look and come. So All right. Thank you everyone for tuning in to another DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel, and please don't forget Terrain Review. So important. Cal, thank you so much.

Cal Nef: Thank you.