Marathon Dad: How Jonathan Brower Finds Speed Between 3:50 AM Runs and Bedtime Stories

DFW Running Talk: Jonathan Brower
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Chris Detzel: [00:00:00] Welcome to DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel, so let's get started.

Welcome to another DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Detzel, and today we have special guests, Jonathan Brower. Jonathan, how are you?

Jonathan Brower: I'm doing well.

Chris Detzel: It's. Yeah, it's good to have you, man. We were just running a 5K last Thursday, and this is how this usually goes is I'm running as fast as I can, maybe 20 minutes, 50 seconds or something, it's fairly, it's pretty fast for me.

And I'm at that time, top 10. This was like Thursday, the White Rock co-op thing, not co-op, but White Rock. Consortium, I forgot what it was called.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, y Our Conservancy.

Chris Detzel: Conservancy, yeah. And here I am, like, I think I'm at mile one and a half or two, and then you just come past me with a stroller, with your baby talking to your baby.

And then you're passing everybody else. This is normal, this is like anytime there's a 5K race with either DRC or White Rock or you're in it. You're just passing a bunch of people just slogging [00:01:00] along and jogging along. And I love that. And it was funny. I'll to tell you a story because I'm done.

I start trying to talk to you and then somebody starts coming up to me and starts, Chris, what's going on? So that's, and they look at you. I think he walked off, whatever. That's a guy that was talking to his baby and he was talking about the Stars game and what time the Stars game is. And I'm like, I know.

And he just passes this bow like it was nothing. So that's how I see you nowadays, just kinda hanging out with the kids running five Ks. But and I appreciate what you're doing and then we'll talk about that in a minute. So I just wanna tell that story because that's how I always see you.

Now, I wanna know more about you, man, like I met you in DRC years and years ago, and would love to get to know you in a little. Little bit about your journey, running journey and then we'll go from there. 'cause I have lots of questions for you. How about that?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, that sounds great.

Chris Detzel: Let's go.

Like when did you start running? Like when, what got you interested in that, do you remember?

Jonathan Brower: So running for me, I really didn't start running till probably the last semester of grad school, which it would've [00:02:00] been, early 2012. Okay. Up, up until that point, I had been playing, I really, tennis had been my sport since I was pretty young and I played it all through middle school, high school, and even at a and MI wasn't playing on the varsity team, but I was playing on the club team and it was fairly competitive.

You could take it as seriously as you wanted to, and I really started to get burnt out and attendance was just not for me anymore at that time.

Chris Detzel: You do any racketball or,

Jonathan Brower: I did a little bit of racketball just for fun, but I tried to always focus on tennis because I didn't want the racketball to, to mess up, mess

Chris Detzel: up your, form and things like that.

Jonathan Brower: Exactly. Is that

Chris Detzel: a real thing? Oh yeah, it is. Okay.

Jonathan Brower: I think it is a different, I think tennis players, like going in, I could just wa away at a racketball and beat people even though I didn't have racketball strategy. I could just swing the racket as hard as I wanted to

Chris Detzel: hit 'em in the back.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah there's a lot larger margins in racketball, at least from my tennis perspective.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Okay. So you got a little tired of tennis and then you thought maybe I'll start running or what, that seems like a natural progression. There's a lot of, running around in tennis, right?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. And it's [00:03:00] interesting 'cause for me, running had always been just a means to an end.

It was, I. Not something that I would just want to go out and do. It was always part of training or like you need to go run so that you're in shape so you can play, multiple matches over the course of a weekend in tennis. And I think it really, the seed probably got planted in high school when I had, one of my tennis coach was a former army drill sergeant and so he had always weird workouts and pushing.

Yeah. Jumping. So that's probably

Chris Detzel: what made you hate it,

Jonathan Brower: yeah. That might've been it too. But I remember during the summertime he would always challenge us with a two mile run, and he tracked our progress the whole summer and had he wanted to make sure that you're improving over the long hot summer doing these weekly two mile runs.

And I had no idea what I was doing back then with running. I would just, we would just go out there and That's funny. Yeah. Just,

Chris Detzel: yeah. But I'm sure you're beating people pretty, pretty badly or

Jonathan Brower: again, or never. It was always, it was usually like me and one other guy that we were always.

Pacing off each other. Never

Chris Detzel: thought about it. Like you're like I'm just doing this to play some tennis.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, exactly. It was just part of my training. But then, yeah, once I started to [00:04:00] getting a little burnt out of tennis and it just became you can, all you have to do is put on some shoes and go for a run.

So I started kinda doing that and again, I had no idea what I was doing. I remember just putting on my shoes and like running out the front door and just going full speed, like right off the bat. Yep. We

Chris Detzel: all do that at first three

Jonathan Brower: miles at six minute pace without even thinking of the consequences.

Chris Detzel: Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: And then wait a couple days and be like, let's try it again and go a little faster this time and

Chris Detzel: go faster. Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: But yeah, then I moved to Dallas. I graduated in May of 2012, got a job here in Dallas and so I moved here about a month later and pretty quickly found the Dallas Rain Club. Okay.

Chris Detzel: And so they had a more structured program that sounds like you might've been interested in and probably learned some things from it.

Jonathan Brower: At that time I still, I joined the Dallas running club, like I paid membership due, but all I did was go to the monthly races. Yeah. So started, yeah.

Chris Detzel: And how now did that keep you energized, like you'd run it and do pretty well. Is that how that went or what happened?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I would run and I enjoyed the competition part of it and I started to, after I did a few [00:05:00] races, I was like, okay, how can I get better now? So then tried to start reading up on some stuff.

Met a couple people through DRC that were like, Hey, you should come to the training groups. And, we have coaches, we have PACE leaders, and it's still at that time wasn't clicking yet that I needed people. So I just. Kept, it was just doing my own thing for a while, and it wasn't until, I think it was the fall of 2015 is when I finally signed up for an actual DRC training group.

Chris Detzel: Did you like see yourself before 2015, like progressing in your runs at all? Or was it more was it just,

Jonathan Brower: I think I was progressing at the shorter distances. I, but then I ran my first marathon. It was, I, it was 2013 I think it was when I had my first marathon. And that was in Chicago.

And then I wanted to, I, I caught the marathon bug. Then I was like, okay, I need to improve my marathon time. And then I ran New York the next year.

Chris Detzel: Wait, let's back up. You've already got me intrigued. So you ran Chicago and how'd you do, first of all, and how was your true?

Because you weren't really. [00:06:00] Thinking, I think you're probably thinking of training a little bit. 'cause to run a marathon you have to do

Jonathan Brower: something. Yeah. I was like looking up some plan, you can just get off the internet for free. And I don't even remember what it was. I probably mixed a few together.

But I ran, I did most of the training runs by myself a couple times on the long runs. So I got someone to join me for at least a few of the miles. But I ran a 3 0 6 something that first year in Chicago.

Chris Detzel: Your first marathon, you ran a 3 0 6.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, so I was right there. I was right there at that time. The bq, the Boston Marathon standards were a little bit different.

So I was like on the line. I was like, a minute or, and change away from just the main cutoff. So I was kinda like, okay, I'm, yeah, you were young. Shooting distance now. Yeah, it's an achievable goal because I really didn't know what to expect. So then, is that

Chris Detzel: your goal was to try to qualify for Boston, that first marathon, or did you even think about it?

Jonathan Brower: I think it, it probably was. I was, but I was also, I think I had enough people remind me that, Hey, you just don't know what's gonna happen in the marathon.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, but that's true in general, right? That's generally what I'd tell people. But you were right there. Yeah, of course. One minute off.

It,

Jonathan Brower: it [00:07:00] really, yeah, I mean it was the typical like mile 20, 21 ish. Things fell apart. Stuff started cramping and that's where really, where that kind of fell apart that day. Yeah. It was, did

Chris Detzel: do any half marathons before, like to

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. Wrap yourself up. So that first year that I moved to Dallas in 2012, I signed up for the DRC half.

So that DRC half was my first ever half.

Chris Detzel: Okay. So you had some long distance type stuff, and you're not marathons, but still. Okay.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I wasn't completely winging at that point, but I think I was still just doing it by myself and just self-research too.

Chris Detzel: Okay. So then you're like, I'm sure you're probably pretty pumped about what your time was, right?

Were you happy about that, I assume and then,

Jonathan Brower: yeah, I, the big city feel of Chicago I think that was a really good first one for me because at the time I was like, I don't know, this might be my only marathon. So I was like, let's just, let's do it big. Let's go to a cool city. Let's make a vacation out of it.

Like I didn't wanna, nothing against Dallas, but I was like, I don't want to just run in Dallas, if I live here if this might be my only one let's go somewhere [00:08:00] and make it big. Yeah.

Chris Detzel: That, that's a great marathon. My wife's done it a few times. I've been, I. At least once, maybe twice.

I didn't do it, but all so you did that first marathon. We don't have to necessarily go through the entire journey, but we, I'll go as much as you want. But then you said you did New York or thought about New York or what was

Jonathan Brower: the next Yeah, so then the next year I like to say, I was like, okay, I wanna do another one.

I'm knocking on the door. Let's go bigger. And then, yeah, I was like, yeah what other big cities can I run in? You can run in New York. So I joined, I did the lottery that year and yeah, it was like a 10% chance and I got in via the lottery. So it was like, okay, let's go to New York. Did that one, I did worse that year.

I, I think it was like a three 12 or three 13 that makes sense. Central Park Hills really. Actually it was. Like the Fifth Avenue Hill right before you get into Central Park. That really is what broke me. And then I just remember just struggling all the way through the finish in Central Park.

So that was discouraging, but I still was like, I need to, I can figure this out. Like I'm still right there, three 12 within shooting distance still.

Chris Detzel: Now, this was before you started running with the group still. So this [00:09:00] is the next year, 2014,

Jonathan Brower: 14, yeah.

Chris Detzel: Okay. All right. So keep going.

So you said I still got the bug. I wanna do it. I'm not discouraged, so that's good.

Jonathan Brower: And then at this point I had become pretty good friends with Omar Zo who I actually met him at my very first DRC race, like back in 2012. Because I was wearing, I have a badass too.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: He's awesome runner.

He should definitely be on this, even though he doesn't live in Dallas one day. But no, I was wearing an a and m shirt, I think at that first race I did. And so then he came up to me, he is Hey, did you go to a and m? And told me he was, an Aggie as well. And then we found out we're both, civil engineers. And so we instantly connected through that, this whole, through this whole time he's been, he was the one who was like, Hey, you should join DRC, and I was the one being like maybe not right now. Yeah, finally. And he had been, he had been giving a little bit of advice through those, that first Chicago marathon and New York.

And so finally I was like, okay, I need to do what Omar says and I need to go run with him and his group. So yeah. Then I joined DRC and I signed up that year for the Portland Marathon.

Chris Detzel: [00:10:00] Okay.

Jonathan Brower: Portland, Oregon, was

Chris Detzel: that a downhill or was that a.

Jonathan Brower: I guess the race, it really doesn't exist currently in, in the state.

It was when I did it it started and ended in, in downtown Portland. And it was, had some good hills in it. But that was a, all right,

Chris Detzel: so let's back up, 'cause let's talk about training with DRC. Did you learn a lot, or was it more of, what went on there? I'm curious.

I think,

Jonathan Brower: The biggest thing I learned out of it was just how to be consistent. And so I think having the, the two group runs a week that was at least, okay, I have to show up for these and I have to get this workout done. And then from there it was seen. Okay. But there's also all these other runs that have to happen in between those group runs.

And if you're not doing that, you're not gonna be ready for the long run.

Chris Detzel: You're not gonna be able to keep up.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah.

Chris Detzel: I've done that before. I've run on DRC for years and I remember I would pay sleep for the purpose of that. I would get my runs in during the week. 'cause sometimes if you don't, if you're just doing those two runs, eventually those long runs will catch up and you won't be able to do those long runs.

'cause [00:11:00] you're not doing the work during the week. Yeah. 15 or 17 or 18 miler come up and you haven't been doing that work throughout the week. You know you're screwed.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. A Saturday morning.

Chris Detzel: And all right, so you get, did you ran with Omar, but there were some others back then too, wasn't there?

Like Paul and some other fast dudes?

Jonathan Brower: I know Tracy Doty was on in the group too.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, she was.

Jonathan Brower: Who else? It was a small group.

Chris Detzel: I remember,

Jonathan Brower: yeah, there was, that's,

Chris Detzel: There's four or five of you. It was Paul, Kendall, you, Omar, Tracy, and maybe one or two others. Yeah. And we'll get to some of that in a minute because now you do some coaching, I think, on the side or, but I'm highly interested in that.

You get to Portland and you've been running with a group, and how'd you do and how'd you fill?

Jonathan Brower: So that was, yeah, that was my breakthrough race was, yeah. The Portland Marathon. I ran a 2 58 there.

Chris Detzel: Okay.

Jonathan Brower: And think it helped. Yeah, just having that base that I built all through the couple years leading up to that.

Chris Detzel: Yeah,

Jonathan Brower: training season and then having all the support [00:12:00] from DRC people. I really I really enjoyed that even though no one else from DRC that year was, at least in my group, was doing Portland. So felt very supported by them. And yeah, I just, they had fortunately had a three hour pace group in Portland that year, so I just tucked in with them and it was just stare at the back of this guy's shirt, carrying the stick and don't let go.

And I remember it was probably mile 23 or so. We were running across the last bridge over the river, going back into downtown Portland. And the pacer it, he was like, man we're ahead of schedule. You probably got a minute buffer right now. I'm gonna drop back a little bit and, try and get back right on pace.

But you need to go right now. This is it. You're good. And so I just went out by myself at that point. And yeah, kicked it home. Sounds

Chris Detzel: like you did a good job base pacing.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. That's crazy, man. Yeah, it was very consistent.

Chris Detzel: It's a tough one to pace, right?

Because anything can happen, especially at that level I think, maybe at any level at a marathon. But do you look at that and say, being around the community DRC was helpful or [00:13:00] what's that?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, it definitely was very helpful just for having that community during the week.

By the time you get to race day, I always say all the work is done. It's really. That's just like the, if you've done it, everything right, that's like the coronation. You just gotta go and go through the motions. So yeah, having all the support leading up to it really helped, even though I didn't really have anyone from Dallas with me in Portland that year.

Chris Detzel: Yeah, but you found a lot of races alone. Anyways, that wasn't really, I. I'm sure it helps to have people run with you, but for the most part, you're going to these destination races that are, you have to travel to. You've been to Chicago, you've been to New York, and then Portland, so not everybody can do all those things, but that's pretty cool.

And then you went to Bo then did you go to Boston or obviously qualified?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, so I qualified that year. So that year though, like I didn't, even though it was 2015, I was like past the 2016 window. Yeah, I didn't go to Boston until 2017. So in between then I did, I ended up doing Chicago again in 2016.

At that point I was PACE [00:14:00] leading for DRC, so I was a PACE leader. I ran 2 59 in Chicago,

Chris Detzel: very consistent with the last one.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. That the goal in Chicago was just, I just wanted to prove to myself that it wasn't a fluke. Do it again. Yeah.

Chris Detzel: Wasn't a fluke. Of course. It wasn't a fluke. You ran a 3 0 7, your first one.

Yeah. But Yeah. Makes sense. And then, yeah, so you went, so you you did a 2 59 Chicago and did you run another one before Boston or

Jonathan Brower: No. So then, yeah, then I just got ready for the Boston, so it was probably, seven, eight months after that. Chicago, yes.

Chris Detzel: How'd you do, what'd you think, atmosphere.

I, I'd love to hear more about that.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, so that one, I really took it as just a victory lap kind of thing. That mindset started at the beginning of the season and it got forced on me more. 'cause I ended up getting a stress fracture. Oh. So it turned into just get to the start line and just finish.

I think I only really got, I had to do like a eight or 10 week buildup to Boston that year. And so at that point I was like, yeah, you know what? Just go. Fun. Enjoyed the experience. A good friend Mauricio [00:15:00] Caston, he was also running his first Boston that year. And yeah, so we just ran it together. We just did all the things, high fiving people the whole way.

Eating the free food people give us. That's great. Yeah, so I, it was really nice to experience it that way. Yeah, I think I ran like A 3 33. Yeah. Something in the three 30 range.

Chris Detzel: That's a nice, easy run race for you. That sounds, hey, I went there, I had fun. I didn't want to injure myself more.

Were you injured at that time or were you feeling better?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I felt better. My foot might have started to flare up a little bit towards the end, but I got out of the race like unscathed. I think I just took a couple weeks off and got back to it. But I will say, even though it was like, I slowed down and that was my slowest marathon, man, you still feel it those last couple miles, no matter what speed you're running, like the distance just, it catches up to you eventually.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. It's not an easy race, I know Leah, my wife, she's done it. She'll be, it'll be her 12th year coming up and she's she enjoys it. She loves it, but she's only had two or three really good Boston marathons. It's not [00:16:00] an easy raise from my understanding.

And from what you know, there are people that actually pr it, so it's not like it, it's not doable. But in general, I don't think it's super easy anyways, Hills and downhills and bunch of stuff. What have you been doing since then? What's the, have you still run have you run more Bostons or what's the kinda latest?

Jonathan Brower: So this, the marathon story from there was, I did so then I did Boston again. In 2017, 'cause that was from my my second Chicago time. So I got, should do it back to back years. That second year connection or in a way I was, yeah. I was definitely, trying to, train hard for that one.

But that ended up being the year where there was you were probably there with Leah the year where it was like really rainy and cold. I didn't

Chris Detzel: go, but yeah, I remember.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah.

Chris Detzel: Luckily I didn't go mean, I would've not had fun anyway.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. So it was that year I think I ran like a three 11 or three 12.

Considering the elements. Yeah. But I do remember just at one point, running along in that rain and the wind blowing and it. I remember like the wind, like [00:17:00] literally pushed me sideways at one point and just raining in the face. I just started laughing 'cause it was just so ridiculous.

That's great. I remember thinking too, like the only, if it had been any other day, I would've not gone running that day, but I was like, I'm here at the Boston Marathon, like what am I gonna do? Not run. But it was, yeah, the worst day ever to run,

Chris Detzel: but all day was miserable from my understanding. There wasn't one that you've just felt, I don't know if this true for you, but I know Leo was like, not one time did I feel warm.

Like generally when you. Ron, you can, even if it's cold outside and slightly raining. But I hear it was, from my understanding, it was pouring the entire time. It was cold. Just no time to get warm at all.

Jonathan Brower: And I remember I tried to I was trying to be clever and smart, and I had my race shoes in three.

Like triple bagged. And I was just carrying 'em. I was wearing like throwaway shoes. And so then at the last minute when I'm in the corral, I go into a porta-potty and I changed into dry socks and then my nice dry race shoes, and then I get outta the porta-potty and I get back into the corral and I immediately just step in this massive puddle.

[00:18:00] All of that hard work to keep my shoes dry right out the window.

Chris Detzel: Man, that sucks.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. But it probably didn't matter. I would've been, they would've been soaked within two miles anyway, so it was all useless coming, but

Chris Detzel: still, I agree with you. It wouldn't have mattered, when you get those shoes on, you still have in a big puddle and you're like, oh man.

That's a little disheartening. Yes. All right, so you, that's pretty good actually, like three 11 for that day. You gotta be happy with that. And any kind of PRS along the way since now or is 2 58, you still your,

Jonathan Brower: after that, Boston, that was 2018. After that one, I took a step back and I was like, I, I felt like I had done, accomplished what I wanted to accomplish, the marathon distance.

I wanted to focus on my half marathon. Time. That's my

Chris Detzel: favorite, by the way. Yeah,

Jonathan Brower: that's my favorite too, by far. But then, so in late 2019, my wife got pregnant with our first son. We're like, okay. I understood right away we're going to, to me a little step back with just all kind of commitments at that point.

Chris Detzel: Your wife been a runner too though, so she could kinda understand too.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. But then also, the [00:19:00] pandemic happened and so that, that kind of put us a lot of stuff on hold. My son, my first son Noah, was born in May of 2020. Yeah. So just a couple months after a lot babies

Chris Detzel: were born.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, it was a good time to have a newborn 'cause stuck at home anyway. What else are you gonna do? So I feel like I kind exactly

Chris Detzel: can help out a lot and stuff,

Jonathan Brower: yeah. I felt like I cheated first time parenting. 'cause this was, I was there like,

Chris Detzel: exactly.

Jonathan Brower: So yeah, then at, at that point it was really like, okay, I.

I had told myself I was basically retired from the full marathon distance, just 'cause I couldn't see the time commitment being there with young children up at then. Yeah,

Chris Detzel: quickly like It's a good point because are you the kind of person that believes in big distances? 'cause I've talked to some.

Elite athletes as of late, and sub elite and they believe hardcore into kind of the 80 to 120 miles a week to really get to your peak, right? Yeah. So that's a lot. And so my point of it's, that's a lot of time, it's, especially if you have a baby, they're doing two [00:20:00] days, yeah. And I'm like, that's, even if I don't have a kid and I do, but he's now 14, I don't know that I really wanna run 80 to 120. It's just like a lot. Yeah. So I don't know what your thinking is around that.

Jonathan Brower: No, I think in the ideal situation, if you have the time it's definitely the best way to prepare.

But I think I. I think I was able to find not a way to cheat the system, but I think I was able to navigate my way through the time commitment because, I was starting to focus just more on the halftime at that point. And then, I believe it was, it must have been in 2021, I signed up for the DRC half.

They actually had the race in 2021 after taking a year off. I signed up for that race and, I ran like a one 20 something. I was just under 1 21. And that was my half pr. Okay. And I was really stoked by that. And then it, a couple months passed after that and I was thinking about the one 20 time, and I wanted to break one, get a one 19 at some point.

But then I was like, wait a second. I think one 20 will get me [00:21:00] into the New York City Marathon again without having Oh,

Chris Detzel: wow.

Jonathan Brower: So I looked it up and yeah, sure enough I could get in. Be a time qualifier to the New York City Marathon, and I'd always wanted to go back to that race. Because I felt like I'd fallen apart at the end, and I just love the big city atmosphere.

So I, yeah, I went ahead and signed up for New York again. I signed up for the 2022 race, but at that time, our second son had been born in March of 22.

Chris Detzel: Oh, okay. So

Jonathan Brower: I knew I wasn't gonna able to do it, but I figured out that I could sign up for 22 using my time qualifier, and then immediately cancel my race and defer it to 23.

And I thought I'll be in a better position when my younger son, at least a year old. And I can really push in 23. So that's what I did was I deferred it to 23. And I just set myself for a really long-term plan. Like pretty much once the calendar turned to January 23 I started laying out like a really long-term plan for myself through basically building up to New York through the whole year.

And it paid off. I was actually, was able to pr in New [00:22:00] York that year with a 2 57.

Chris Detzel: Okay. You're just like clicking away by the minute.

Jonathan Brower: Just, yeah, little steps, but I don't know. It was interesting to me because I feel like my mindset was able to change a little bit with having kids because, I didn't have the time to, to log the 80, 90 mile weeks, which I do.

I do think, if you have the time and the ability that's the way to do it. But I, that just was not available to me. That wasn't an option to me. So I had to figure out a different way to do this and a different way to get this done.

Chris Detzel: Tell me about that.

Jonathan Brower: So I, I tried to basically scale back.

I knew that I didn't wanna injure myself 'cause it really had been, at that point now it had been five years since I'd done a full marathon. Yeah. So I didn't wanna, I knew I couldn't just throw myself back into what I was used to doing. I was also five years older. I'm not you.

Chris Detzel: Didn't, you're not in your twenties anymore.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah.

Chris Detzel: Or whatever you are. I don't even know how old you are, but

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I guess I, yeah, so that would've been when I was 34 yeah. Oh, okay. Like late twenties and now I'm mid thirties. So I just, I wanted to be careful about it. I didn't wanna hurt [00:23:00] myself. 'cause I also just wanted to get there. I didn't wanna, not even start or DNF, so I built myself a plan where I would just methodically built up those long runs.

I, I got myself up to 14, 15 miles. Like consistently every weekend by April. So still like way out, seven months out. But then I just kept chugging along with those. I just did one, one speed session during the middle of the week, and I think the whole mindset though, are you doing it

Chris Detzel: by yourself then?

Where you're like, Hey, I don't have time to meet with groups anymore, I just have to do this on my own, or

Jonathan Brower: I had some people meeting with me, but Yeah, because of the young kids, I was, I had some runs that I started at like pre 4:00 AM three, 3:50 AM Yeah, because I wanted to be home before seven or six 30 ish.

Chris Detzel: It takes a partnership, man. You know that.

Jonathan Brower: Yep. So I started to realize though that, just getting out and running was a win at that point. And so I feel like the mindset started to change because I think before kids and before you have other life stuff going on, you can in a way make your training perfect.

[00:24:00] Yes. There's a way to, there really is a way to make everything perfect and then you expect perfect, and when something doesn't go quite right, maybe we can sometimes freak out and worry that, oh, I didn't, that wasn't the perfect run. I didn't have the perfect week of training. I. But, and I definitely had that mindset at a, at one point in my life, but I think with having the two younger kids, I realized like, Hey, just the fact that I got to do a workout this week was like, that's big.

I did

Chris Detzel: 15 miles this weekend on Saturday or whatever. It's it's pretty amazing.

Jonathan Brower: And then if it was a bad day or I didn't nail anything, like I could stew on it for a little bit, but then I knew that. Hey, in 30 minutes, two little kids are gonna wake up and they need me to be at my best and I need it.

They don't

Chris Detzel: care about your run.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. So I would move on very quickly.

Chris Detzel: Good. I like that.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I feel like then once I got to New York, it was I just was like, this is why you're here. Like you spent this whole year preparing for this and yeah, it wasn't perfect. I didn't run the most miles by far that I've ever run during a training session, and I didn't do all the workouts [00:25:00] that I normally would've done, but I felt ready and so I just was like, I gotta go now.

This is gotta take the shot.

Chris Detzel: I love that. And you did it right? You even prd and it was only a minute, but because I still think, I don't, there's people that you can see and we'll talk about this in a minute because you've done some really great things with other people, as a coach as you can see, like some things in people that I.

They are faster than what they're showing, right? Because they've done this thing consistently. A lot of times if you do it long enough and you're smart about it, there's a breakthrough, right? Okay, let's say Jonathan's main thing is 2 58, 2 57, 2 59, whatever, right? That's his peak right now, but.

There's potential, this sky could go like two 40 ish, you know what I mean? There is there, but there's people like that. Even whenever I've run with DRC, people like Lexi or people like Maco or Mo or Tracy Doty or whatever they've, when they're here running with DRC, they get fast.

Their potential was never, met. Yet. Maybe it has been [00:26:00] now but you knew that they had the opportunity to do even better than, just 'cause it's there, it's it's just so close. Yeah. And sometimes it's in the mindset, certainly training, but I think a lot of it's in your mind, like if you're running with one 40 or one 30, you're like, oh, that's as fast as I can do.

I was like no, you're definitely a one 30 person. Or faster than a one 40. You just are. But because we all do that to some degree, we put ourselves in this thing. Yeah, I'll stop there. 'cause I think to me, that's what I've seen in a lot of runners, and so what let's talk about that is, so those three or four people that I just mentioned, are now being coached by you or have been coached by you.

And I've seen huge gains by 10 minutes sometimes of a pr and a half or, and I'm like. Dang. Like breakthrough in full, like I know Tracy Duty, you were her coach. And what is it that you're instilling in and what's your philosophy as a coach?

Jonathan Brower: I think yeah I definitely agree with what you say about, just realizing the untapped potential.

I, I definitely see I enjoy seeing the incremental advances in people, whether it's at I think I [00:27:00] take this into my work a lot. And then also with running and coaching, I love looking for just. The small signs of improvement and then studying and understanding how to grow those small increments into larger increments of growth.

And I think it is, like you said, it's a lot about the mental side and just self-belief. And sometimes it just is takes someone in your corner saying, no, you have this and you can do this. And I think one of the things that being a coach with DRC taught me and. Going through the coaching certification program that they supported me through was just seeing that while there, there is a lot of kind of gray areas with running.

There's a lot of, for me, I appreciate the kind of the map behind it. And if you can hit certain paces and do certain workouts, you can pretty accurately predict how you're gonna do it. Something. And it's, but there's always outliers, of course. But I think I have, I think the coaching has taught me to be a good predictor of potential and helping to then explain to a runner that, okay, this is really what you are capable [00:28:00] of, and that doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen.

You could still miss or something. There could be a bad weather day or just you eat the wrong thing that I it out, but it's there. And so I think, and then having the physical proof and backup data to show that they're there, I think then helps plant that. Just initial seed of belief and then it's really on them to take it from there.

But that's what I try to do. It's a mix of science, backup based backup data. But then also just realize I'm like. This? No, this is, it takes some internal motivation, but also some external motivation from people around you and that you can do this.

Chris Detzel: I love that you take a data approach.

I'm a big data guy. I don't, I say I'm a big data guy. Like I enjoy looking at data and things like that, and probably not so much when I'm running, but I. I do think that approach is interesting. I have, I don't think I've heard that, but it makes sense. It's all about, if you're running these splits and you're running these times and you're doing these things and you're hitting the paces, you're capable of doing this, that, this particular time, yeah.

You're capable. Doesn't mean you will. 'cause there's a lot of other factors like weather and mental kind of [00:29:00] focus and is it hilly, is it not? I don't know, whatever. But that's interesting. The first person that's said that, right? Not that I've heard. And I like that.

What kind of data do you look at mostly? What's the,

Jonathan Brower: so you know, the Dallas Running Club they paid for me to take one of the RRCA coaching certification classes and they have, I think it's some PACE tables that were created, I think back in the seventies that they use. And I use those a lot of times for, I.

For creating work, workout schedules. But I also, I'll track, very specifically each runner's workout splits and it's really cool 'cause you can, I like to do a comparison of look, you ran, these mile repeats at this pace three months ago. And you just did that same workout again and you're telling me it sucked and that you did awful, but you just ran them 30 seconds faster than you did three months ago.

And so that I think is the data, like that's concrete evidence. Like you are literally improving on paper and you might not feel like it mentally, but I can show you that you are. And then from there we can take that physical data and turn it into something that [00:30:00] you use to motivate yourself internally.

Chris Detzel: Gives him a boost. I like that man, because it's I know it seemed harder because it was because you ran 30 seconds harder, and so it seems you struggled. Probably did. 'cause you ran 30 seconds faster on each one. Here's the positive is that you ran 30 seconds faster on each split or whatever.

So that means you can do it, and so that builds some confidence. I love that man. That's really a big filter. I think that's pretty cool.

Jonathan Brower: Oh. It sounds a little scary, but I also, I like to tell people, you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Like it's gonna suck at some point.

And the question is, when it sucks, are you going to give up and freak yourself out, or are you gonna be like, you know what, it always sucks right here, and I can do, I can get through this and it's not the end of the world. I have X minutes left, or I have X miles left, but this is just what I do because I'm comfortable being uncomfortable.

Chris Detzel: Kinda like what Courtney DeWalt says, just embrace the Peyton Cave,

Jonathan Brower: yeah, [00:31:00] exactly. You have to, do you know who

Chris Detzel: she is?

Jonathan Brower: No, I haven't heard, I haven't heard that name, but I know that, or I've heard that kind of phrase before.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. She's a ultra runner and literally the fastest woman, ultra runner in the history of ultra running.

And she's getting, closer to the men, and it's pretty immaculate, and, but that's what she said. She goes, I used to just. When that pain cave hit, she goes, I would just break down, and I would allow myself, but now I try to embrace that pain.

I want that pain cave to come, because once it does come, I know I made it. Yeah. And I wanna go through it, and so maybe taking a different approach rather than, oh my gosh, this really sucks. And not that it doesn't. How do you embrace some of those?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah,

Chris Detzel: kind of things. I'm not saying it's easy because, but the best of the best overcome that.

And if you can overcome that, you can certainly get better times and hit those prs and break through, man. That's who she is. She's just this immaculate amazing, a woman runner in the ultra marathon's doing a hundred milers whatever, doing stuff like that. Have you ever done anything more than a marathon?

Jonathan Brower: No, [00:32:00] haven't I've never really considered it. I've always thought, marathon is it for me. I'm not saying I'm totally against it, things change as you progress through life and who knows? It might be something that I get interested later. Yeah. Right now I just. Yeah,

Chris Detzel: what are you interested in now?

What's the, are you coaching a bunch? What does that look like? And then what are you interested in right now? I know, you're, you have a life, kids and work and spouse and things, but what's going on from a running standpoint?

Jonathan Brower: For me, I am coaching it's small right now.

It's probably two or three, two or three runners. And I enjoy that. I enjoy, giving the time and the detailed effort to everyone. And then from my running perspective, I did that marathon New York in 23. And I don't have a plan to do another marathon right now.

Told my wife that was it for me for fulls, and I wanna honor that. The Did she

Chris Detzel: say yay? Yeah,

Jonathan Brower: She actually, because I ran so early in the morning, I was able, I got home before our kids even woke up when I was training. So I tried to minimize the impact on our family, but it wore me out.

I was exhausted.

Chris Detzel: She didn't care because you're [00:33:00] still doing the work.

Jonathan Brower: But yeah, I was just falling asleep at two o'clock in the afternoon every day.

Chris Detzel: I'm tired,

Jonathan Brower: but I took 20, 24 off for the most part. Or I was, I ran, still every week, three to four times a week. But I was, I didn't want to put my, pushed yeah.

Through something and put the stress on myself. And this year I haven't signed up for a fall half, but I'm definitely thinking I'll sign up for DRC half or maybe. Dallas, BMW half, and come up with a goal sometime over the summer. Okay. I wanna keep pursuing the half marathon.

I enjoy the five Ks.

Chris Detzel: I feel like your opportunity for half marathon hasn't even started yet. Like from a breakthrough. I don't like, you said the best is 1 21, is that right? Or one

Jonathan Brower: 20. One 20, yeah. Yeah. I would love if I got in the T, like 1 19, 1 day, that would be, that'd be awesome.

Chris Detzel: I think you have a breakthrough coming, not just one 19, but not to put pressure on you, but.

I believe you do I mean you're, you've got all the talent in the world and look, family's there and things. That's the most important thing. From a talent standpoint, man, I think it's [00:34:00] still untapped for you.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I do looking, keep pounding away and see what happens.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. I'm gonna say this is I've really enjoyed watching your co your career from a running standpoint or, just kinda watching you and just go really fast and beat people.

The five Ks are really fun to watch because now you do it with your kids most of the time, and at least one of 'em. So yeah, I talked to this guy on this podcast. He was in Houston and he's an elite runner. He's now 40 plus. I think he's just turned 40, 41. And, in Houston he won masters at 2 21, 2 22 or something like that for the marathon, but he was pacing somebody, so I don't know that he was going as fast as, but anyways, he has all these records and their stroller, like he would run with, he has four or five kids and he would run with his kids. Like a marathon one time and he won the stroller record, and then he ran a half marathon with the other kid the next year or two and got the stroller, the, running with the stroller, so he is done that.

I think one of them's been beat or something, but he has three or four world records, [00:35:00] so maybe just think about that,

Jonathan Brower: yeah, my kids are getting, they're getting too big. Too old to push now. Yeah. And yeah, it always depends like when you saw me this past Thursday, I still like when we show up for the race, I don't know which kid I'm gonna push.

And it just depends on their attitude. Oh no, I want dad to push me today or No, I wanna go with mom. So yeah. More lately I've been drawing Noah, our older son, he wants me to push him and he's about to turn five and I definitely am feeling the weight.

Chris Detzel: He's five, man, that's gotta be a tough one.

Jonathan Brower: A couple years ago, it didn't matter.

It, I honestly didn't think it really affected me that much. Once I got, the start, of course, you gotta get going. If there's any kind of hill, I would feel it. But once I got going, I didn't feel like it slowed me down that much. But now it's, I definitely feel it.

Chris Detzel: He's bigger. But it's fun to watch you, man.

Like I've been seeing you do it for a few years now and like I'll be running and there goes Jonathan and one of the kids just passed a stroller. Have you ever won one of those or got close to winning? Like one of those five Ks?

Jonathan Brower: There's like a neighborhood 5K in our neighborhood called Run the Highlands.

I think one year I got like second or [00:36:00] third. That's

Chris Detzel: pretty cool

Jonathan Brower: with the stroller. Yeah.

Chris Detzel: So there's one thing I want to talk about that before I forget, is form Follows Fitness. Kay. So I've been doing that for a few years and I know the race director, or at least the guy that puts it on he was on the podcast, he and his wife.

How are you? I know you're very involved in that and have been over the last several years and how does, what does that look like? I'm curious.

Jonathan Brower: So yeah, the Form Falls Fitness 5K, it benefits the architecture and design foundation. I happen, oh, right now I'm actually on the Architecture and Design Foundation board.

I'm a my day job as a structural engineer. So I am a consultant for architects and I help design their buildings, build the structure that holds up architecture and help make architecture happen. And I love buildings. I've loved buildings since I was a little kid. I remember going on trips with my parents and I always wanted to go to downtown, wherever we were.

'cause I wanted to look up at the big buildings. So I've always wanted to understand. How buildings work, how architecture works. And I wanted to know [00:37:00] how they stood up. And so that's what led me to being a structural engineer. So that event specifically, it's like perfect for me. It's architecture and running together.

That's awesome. And I just so happened to work at a company where there's a lot of runners. It's a real, I basically convinced our company every year to be a major sponsor in the event. So we sponsor. A tent there and we, pay for our employees to run the five KI make training plans for the company and put 'em on our servers.

You do? Because, there's a, there's some pretty advanced fund in our office. There's some people who just dabble and there's people who have never run one and they hear that they can sign up for this 5K for free. But they don't know anything. I don't know what to do, so I try to make a plan for them, even if they just wanna walk it. And I think we have it

Chris Detzel: must be a pretty big company, right?

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. We have about a hundred here in Dallas. About, we had about 45 people sign up for the Form Files Fitness this year. Yeah, and it's a lot of fun because, you know it, there's a little internal competition within the a EC [00:38:00] industry because, the architecture firms will sign up.

Team, we sign up a team, other engineering firms sign up teams, the contractor sign up teams and they give away a fastest industry team brick trophy.

Chris Detzel: That's cool. Are you guys the ones giving away the bricks?

Jonathan Brower: No, that's a blackson brick. That's like the top. Okay. Yeah, so they, the, yeah, that brick company, they sponsored the trophy, so that's why all the trophies are bricks.

Chris Detzel: Got it. Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: But yeah, it's a pretty

Chris Detzel: cool event, man. I really like. Do you know Adam? He's from Manhar, Adam. So it's funny because here I'll get his last name. Adam Gren. Do you know Adam? Probably not. No. But anyways, he works at Manhar. You've probably heard of them. Maybe not. But anyways, his company puts, has a tent and everything else there, the last few years he's, beat everybody at his company. Maybe 10 or 15, 20 people sign up. And so he's excited about that every year now, yeah. And so this year he is Chris, I'm staying with you this way. If I stay with you, I can, beat everybody from his company. Not every, and and it's nice little thing. You probably know, jen, [00:39:00] Jenny and Adam Thomason. Yeah. Yeah. So Jenny's a big runner, or has been in the past? Yeah. Used to run with her all the time. And so I know she's a big engineer and so is he, so

Jonathan Brower: they're both architects? Yeah. Yeah. They're

Chris Detzel: both architects, not engineers, architects, my bad.

But

Jonathan Brower: yeah, no, it's, it kinda gets

Chris Detzel: you too confused sometimes.

Jonathan Brower: It's a lot of fun. I enjoy, yeah. Getting people at my work and then, colleagues that I work with excited about the race. And then I think even the non. Architecture side of the running community is really caught on that. That's a great race.

So there's a lot of runners who do the race and they have no association to an architecture engineering firm. They just know it's a fun race.

Chris Detzel: I come to the race, I'm not an architect or nothing. And I love it, yeah. 'cause it's a party. Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: It's a nice party downtown. And you, there's, I can't think of any other 5K that starts and ends down there at the park and has that really unique course.

You get to see Uptown, a lot of downtown.

Chris Detzel: They also put on this race that is it's called what Me Casino puts it on, but

Jonathan Brower: yeah, the Mambo Taxi. Mambo

Chris Detzel: Taxi or Mambo Miles. [00:40:00]

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, so

Chris Detzel: that's a party as well. There's 3000 plus runners there. I remember the first year they put it on her second or something, Leah, so there was like two or 3000 runners and she got first overall in the women's and she's oh, nobody, I was like, you showed up, like there's a thousand women there won.

Like that's who showed up. So yeah, you never know, you just have a, have to have a good day. But they put on some good runs. Yeah. But anything that I missed that you, that I should have been asked that I should have asked you that I just missed completely or,

Jonathan Brower: I think we covered a good amount.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up form false fitness 'cause I love that race and

Chris Detzel: that's awesome. It's one of my favorite five Ks. Maybe second, maybe it's first, I don't know. But any five Ks I'm starting to do more of those this year. Gonna do the Velvet Hammer coming up. And I never did that race.

I don't think I'm doing the 5K in Boston. 'cause Leah is running the marathon. And have you ever done that? Five KI

Jonathan Brower: have, yeah. I did it one year with my dad. Cool. Yeah, there's a ton of people at that one too.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. And [00:41:00] elite runners, yeah. Literally elite runners running 13 something a mile or 13, five minute 5K.

Yeah.

Jonathan Brower: The year that we did it, we were so far back in the starting corral that like we were just getting to the start line and the elites were finishing. It's like why

Chris Detzel: Okay, so far back is your dad you just running with your dad or

Jonathan Brower: something? Yeah, we were just doing it just to Okay. They had something to do that weekend With us too.

Chris Detzel: Yeah. It's, I always thought five Ks were one of the hardest, just because it's, feels like a sprint the whole time. You don't feel too bad after 30 minutes. You're fine after you're done,

Jonathan Brower: I think I get more anxious before a 5K that I'm trying to go all out than I do before marathon.

'cause I know there's zero margin for error and it's gonna be just pain immediately.

Chris Detzel: Exactly how do you approach the 5K? I'm curious 'cause you do quite a bit of five Ks or have

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. I just try and go out. I try to go just even splits, it usually ends up negative splits. But the goal is I just try to go and just hold on.

And I'm not saying that's the best advice, but that's what I try and do. And yeah, you get

Chris Detzel: up there [00:42:00] and think, man, I wanna win this.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah I've come close in form Falls Fitness. I think I got third one year. And yeah, if I won that race one year, that'd be, I think I'm

Chris Detzel: not, you beat Carlos. What do you know, Carlos?

He gets like second or third every year.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, I think I, yeah, I think I heard

Chris Detzel: yeah, that's right. Pata.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like last year, I was, felt like I was in decent shape. I didn't run as well as I wanted to. But yeah. Hopefully next year, yeah, I can. Can gear up again. My PR is at that, on that course, so I think it's a nice fast course.

What is

Chris Detzel: it? What's the

Jonathan Brower: my PR is 1645.

Chris Detzel: Dang, dude.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, no, that's

Chris Detzel: fast. Think of it, if you were to equate that to a half marathon, that's way faster than a one 20.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, that would be,

Chris Detzel: I'm not saying you're gonna run a 1645 per k, you know Exactly. But see your potential man is still pretty amazing.

I still think you got it. If you can get the speed and miles in, yeah. Jonathan, this has been great. Really appreciate you coming [00:43:00] on and great conversation. Thank you everyone for tuning into another DFW Running Talk. I'm Chris Deel. Please make sure you rate and review us.

And Jonathan, thanks again.

Jonathan Brower: Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.